No EGC

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JoeNorm

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I'm supposed to do some work in a condo that has no equipment ground anywhere. I understand this can be remedied at the receptacles by making sure they are GFCI protected.

But what about 240 loads like baseboard heaters? Do we just hope for the best that the exposed metal parts never get energized?

What is the protocol here? thanks.
 
See attached photo. Sure I understand metal conduit can be used as a EGC but don't you still need a ground in the panel? Or is the neutral doing the work at that point?
 

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If EMT or RGS steel or aluminum feed the panel then there could legally be no incoming ground wire except the pipe of course.


The branch circuits if flex with no ground are limited 20A breakers or smaller and length is less than 6'

250 118(5) 2017

I don't know it it was allowed with no ground for longer lengths at one time but the 1975 code requires the same thing. 6' or less, approved fittings and breakers 20A or less
 
If I'm not mistaken, in existing installations, the metallic sheath of BX/AC may be relied upon as the EGC for branch circuits. As mentioned above, what is the feeder wiring method?

It also matters which code cycle was in force at the time, and if any remodeling has triggered full-updating requirements to become necessary. Here, it's 50% of area of the building.
 
LarryFine said:
If I'm not mistaken, in existing installations, the metallic sheath of BX/AC may be relied upon as the EGC for branch circuits. As mentioned above, what is the feeder wiring method?

It also matters which code cycle was in force at the time, and if any remodeling has triggered full-updating requirements to become necessary. Here, it's 50% of area of the building.
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I have had this discussion about the pre 1959 BX that had no aluminum strip. Like what are you supposed to do when you run into that.? I had a 1955 house (my own) that I sold a few years back all original BX except what romex I added. The original BX I had both types, some with the aluminum strip and some without.
 
Eddie702 said:
I have had this discussion about the pre 1959 BX that had no aluminum strip. Like what are you supposed to do when you run into that.? I had a 1955 house (my own) that I sold a few years back all original BX except what romex I added. The original BX I had both types, some with the aluminum strip and some without.
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Again, back to what was compliant when installed may remain.

If the concern is the unbonded BX, you may add functional grounding where needed.
 
JoeNorm said:
See attached photo. Sure I understand metal conduit can be used as a EGC but don't you still need a ground in the panel? Or is the neutral doing the work at that point?
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Those raceways visible in the photo are FMC and as Eddie mentioned in post #6 there are limitations as to when FMC can be used as the EGC. Whether code complaint or not they are using the metal FMC as the EGC. It's not visible in the photo but the feeder is likely doing something similar depending on the wiring method it may be code compliant. Overall that's some pretty ugly electrical work.
 
Question on this. While existing wiring method might not be currently compliant, but on an old installation, if you are able to meter good continuity between the outlet boxes and panel for grounding, can on a replacement simply installing a ground pigtail to the box be done rather than GFCI receptacle in each box.
 
It looks like a multi wire branch circuit in two single poles, hard to tell for sure. Does you AHJ allow that in your area when a there's a panel change out.
I do wonder what that FMC is connected to on the other end.
May be an easy fix or not.
It appears to be a sub panel and can not see what is used for EGC on feeder. I would think some type of raceway based on conductors.

Since you white/ black/ red on two poles and no visible ground wire for the two poles or single poles. I would be sure the feeder raceway is an effective EGC. Then the branch circuits.
I see a 40 that may be range,a 30 may be dryer. If so and it's a sub panel ( pretty sure, no MBJ or main)you have a even bigger issue if the 30 is a dryer. Need better pic of conductors entering raceway. Water heater, A/C may be ok. I would say the two pole 20 is an window air or condenser unit.
Pic of the labled panel director would clear that up.
I would say it could use a little work.
Look forward to your remediation if any and more pics.
 
Thanks for the replies. To recap:

Flex is likely the EGC but has limitations
Feeder needs to be in some sort of metal raceway

I believe the 40 is the range and the 30 is the hot water. There is no dryer in the condo.

The owner in no way can afford a complete upgrade. The current task is to replace her baseboard heating with new units or switch to something else. Almost all the baseboard has failed.

Main concern is leaving owner with something safe(without a complete overhaul)
 
JoeNorm said:
Thanks for the replies. To recap:

Flex is likely the EGC but has limitations
Feeder needs to be in some sort of metal raceway

I believe the 40 is the range and the 30 is the hot water. There is no dryer in the condo.

The owner in no way can afford a complete upgrade. The current task is to replace her baseboard heating with new units or switch to something else. Almost all the baseboard has failed.

Main concern is leaving owner with something safe(without a complete overhaul)
Click to expand...
GFCI them. Breakers are available.
 
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