Led retro trims glow dimly when switched off

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mark32

mark32

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Currently in NJ
Hello!

I went to a friend of a friends house today as she was complaining about the one year old led lights in her kitchen not completely shutting off. Initially I thought that the dimmer that controlled the lights was an older one with a locator light, but no, it was a newer "CL" Lutron Diva. Since I was there, I swapped it out with the new Diva I had brought, but the lights did in fact continue to glow when shut off. For the heck of it, I replaced one of the existing led trims (Commercial Elec) with a Halo one, and not only did it still glow when shut off, but it began blinking on and off as well!!?? Details about the job, there are seven old work recessed housings, the power is in the ceiling as there is only a single 14/2 bx going to the switch. Gone is the center light, which means there is likely a buried splice somewhere up there. (No attic access here) I'm guessing the dude that installed the recessed housings, and likely buried the splice, somehow botched the splice, allowing some voltage to get to the lights regardless if the switch/dimmer is off. This lady is out of my typical work area, so I do not have plans of going back anytime soon to troubleshoot, too busy closer to home. This is mainly for me to understand what could be the culprit here. Thanks!
 
Current leakage.
Not seen with incandescent because of low resistance but will glow an led.
Lutron makes a load cap to solve this. LUT-MLC. It wires in parallel to the load.
The blinking fixture i think was not dimmer rated.

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The LEDs require so little current that they're responding to voltage induced in the switch leg from nearby hot wires.
 
I would unland the neutral in the panel and test for continuity to the ground bar.
EDIT And I would also measure voltage between the can housing and a known good ground.
 
Had this issue a few years ago at a farm, he replaced some high pressure sodium with LED lights. He turned the switch and the lights glowed. I went out and found they had the neutral switched


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Found many times someone will have gone in and spliced 2 circuits neutrals in a jbox somewhere. Thus tortuga's suggested testing would give an indication of this. This can give enough voltage on the neutral to light an LED.
 
Yes, it doesn't take much. I replaced an incandescent lamp with an LED in my master bath Vent/Light. Any power on to the units vent control causes the lamp to glow. I tend to sleep with my eyes closed so it doesn't bother me. My spouse however, hasn't learned to shut her eyes and keep them closed.
 
ptonsparky said:
Yes, it doesn't take much. I replaced an incandescent lamp with an LED in my master bath Vent/Light. Any power on to the units vent control causes the lamp to glow. I tend to sleep with my eyes closed so it doesn't bother me. My spouse however, hasn't learned to shut her eyes and keep them closed.
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Have you tried a higher grade of LED bulb? I had one like that, racked by brain for days, one day I decided to put a satco bulb in and take the .99 cent one out, took care of the issue of bulb glowing


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Some good debugging ideas, just remember that with LEDs you can have some slight glow even with everything wired correctly.

Capacitive coupling across a switch loop can be enough current for a dim glow. In some LED shop lights, coupling across the built in switch (possibly EMI filtering) is sufficient.

Jon
 
McLintock said:
Have you tried a higher grade of LED bulb? I had one like that, racked by brain for days, one day I decided to put a satco bulb in and take the .99 cent one out, took care of the issue of bulb glowing


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It hasn't bothered me enough to get the ladder out again. Those lamps cost me .99 for the pair! I'll be danged if I throw out stuff that works.
Maybe when I retire and have nothing to do.
 
A hidden paralleled incandescent bulb, even a tiny one, should shunt the voltage enough to stop the glow.
 
Thank you all for the replies, I appreciate it!

I like the idea Shaneyj had mentioned, using that Lutron LUT-MLC load cap; I could pull down one of the housings and stick it in it's j-box. The Halo trim I used was dimmable by the way. Tortuga's suggestion was also brilliant! As a side note, we don't have that quote feature anymore?
 
mark32 said:
Thank you all for the replies, I appreciate it!

I like the idea Shaneyj had mentioned, using that Lutron LUT-MLC load cap; I could pull down one of the housings and stick it in it's j-box. The Halo trim I used was dimmable by the way. Tortuga's suggestion was also brilliant! As a side note, we don't have that quote feature anymore?
Click to expand...
Here is the quote feature as Larry pointed out.

You don't have to put the MLC in the can, you can put it in the switch box if there is a neutral in there. If you have to put it in the can, and there is more than one can, find the lead/first light and add it there. That will allow it to cover all the lights.
 
Little Bill said:
Here is the quote feature as Larry pointed out.

You don't have to put the MLC in the can, you can put it in the switch box if there is a neutral in there. If you have to put it in the can, and there is more than one can, find the lead/first light and add it there. That will allow it to cover all the lights.
Click to expand...

I wouldn’t think it would matter where you installed it. Unless I’m missing something (wouldn’t be the first time).
 
LarryFine said:
Just hit "Reply" in the lower right corner of the post you want to quote.
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Thank you Larry!!

LittleBill, like Retirede mentioned, I too was under the impression that the load cap could be anywhere load side of the switch/dimmer, eh? I did say that the power for these lights is in the ceiling, (Just a two wire going to the dimmer) however, this dimmer is in a two gang in which there is a neutral, likely it's the same circuit, but did not confirm. If it is the same circuit, I could then place this load cap in the two gang. Although, there are already two dimmers in this box, hmm, I wonder if this load cap is small enough to fit in there.
 
mark32 said:
Thank you Larry!!

LittleBill, like Retirede mentioned, I too was under the impression that the load cap could be anywhere load side of the switch/dimmer, eh? I did say that the power for these lights is in the ceiling, (Just a two wire going to the dimmer) however, this dimmer is in a two gang in which there is a neutral, likely it's the same circuit, but did not confirm. If it is the same circuit, I could then place this load cap in the two gang. Although, there are already two dimmers in this box, hmm, I wonder if this load cap is small enough to fit in there.
Click to expand...
Make sure the neutral is for the lights. The MLC is small, about 1" sq and maybe 1/2" thick. You just connect it between hot and neutral. It can be in the switch box, in the light, or anywhere along the circuit that is accessible.
 
readydave8 said:
of course if no one mentioned already, breaking the neutral instead of hot at switch will cause this
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McLintock did:
McLintock said:
He turned the switch and the lights glowed. I went out and found they had the neutral switched
Click to expand...
And thats interesting I wonder why that would make a difference electrically? (Switched neutrals have not been allowed since the early 1920's)
 
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