In-ground receptacles in flood zone. GFCI breakers or just receptacles?

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KyleDurham1221

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I'm installing in-ground receptacles in a flood zone. All outdoor receptacles must be GFCI protected but what about these circuits? In a flood the receptacles will trip but without GFCI breakers on the circuits there is potential hazard no?

Can't find anything about this in NEC.

Thanks
 
What are the used for? This would be one answer. The box is designed to keep the water out of the receptacles. Breakers would be better protection.

The Outdoor Ground Box Supplies Power to Outdoor Spaces

The Outdoor Ground Box is UL-listed and delivers power, data, or AV connectivity in outdoor spaces. Learn how to supply permanent power with Legrand.
www.legrand.us www.legrand.us
 
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hillbilly1 said:
What are the used for? This would be one answer. The box is designed to keep the water out of the receptacles. Breakers would be better protection.

The Outdoor Ground Box Supplies Power to Outdoor Spaces

The Outdoor Ground Box is UL-listed and delivers power, data, or AV connectivity in outdoor spaces. Learn how to supply permanent power with Legrand.
www.legrand.us www.legrand.us
Click to expand...
Those are the exact boxing we’re using. The instructions call for GFCI breakers because the boxes don’t come with Gfci receptacles built inside. But the runs to the panel are way over 150’ and cause nuisance tripping from the induction of bundled wires. The instructions say I can replace the pre-made receptacles with GFCI in this instance but the install is in a flood zone. Makes me wonder if I really can take them off of GFCI breakers
 
I’m not aware of any NEC code that deals with receptacles inside of a structure being in a flood zone. The building code where you are probably dictates a minimum floor height above the flood elevation.

As for the GFCi branch distance; is it possible to install a GFCI on a nearby wall to then feed the floor boxes? Or even a dead-front GFCI somewhere close by?

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KyleDurham1221 said:
They are outdoors in tree beds
Click to expand...

Ah, I see now that you’re using the Legrand box.

I put several of those in a sports complex a couple of years ago, and Legrand told me to not put a GFCI device in there. The covers with decora inserts are for AV devices. They are water-tight when closed, but it still gets damp inside. The cut sheet has a line that says you must connect them to an upstream GFCI.

Mine were at baseball fields for pitching machines, and we put GFCI receptacles behind the backstop in a block wall that fed the ground boxes.

You could put an Arlington Gard-N-Post nearby with a WR GFCI.

Arlington | 19.5" Low Profile Enclosure with Built-In Cover

Our Gard-N-Posts® are the attractive, safe, and easy way to install power outdoors. We offer a variety of colors (black, bronze, green, and white) to ensure the perfect match.
www.aifittings.com www.aifittings.com


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brantmacga said:
Ah, I see now that you’re using the Legrand box.

I put several of those in a sports complex a couple of years ago, and Legrand told me to not put a GFCI device in there. The covers with decora inserts are for AV devices. They are water-tight when closed, but it still gets damp inside.

Mine were at baseball fields for pitching machines, and we put GFCI receptacles behind the backstop in a block wall that fed the ground boxes.

You could put an Arlington Gard-N-Post nearby with a WR GFCI.

Arlington | 19.5" Low Profile Enclosure with Built-In Cover

Our Gard-N-Posts® are the attractive, safe, and easy way to install power outdoors. We offer a variety of colors (black, bronze, green, and white) to ensure the perfect match.
www.aifittings.com www.aifittings.com


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Click to expand...
 
brantmacga said:
Ah, I see now that you’re using the Legrand box.

I put several of those in a sports complex a couple of years ago, and Legrand told me to not put a GFCI device in there. The covers with decora inserts are for AV devices. They are water-tight when closed, but it still gets damp inside.

Mine were at baseball fields for pitching machines, and we put GFCI receptacles behind the backstop in a block wall that fed the ground boxes.

You could put an Arlington Gard-N-Post nearby with a WR GFCI.

Arlington | 19.5" Low Profile Enclosure with Built-In Cover

Our Gard-N-Posts® are the attractive, safe, and easy way to install power outdoors. We offer a variety of colors (black, bronze, green, and white) to ensure the perfect match.
www.aifittings.com www.aifittings.com


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There is 100 of these boxes in 100 different tree beds and the owner would never approve of the visible stakes. Legrand told you definitely cannot use GFCIs in the box?
 
Our city electricians use the Arlington as standard in tree planters, alongside public sidewalks. They hold up OK. The WR GFCIs make a difference. And they are controlled with a master relay/PE, turned off if not used for holiday lighting.
 
tom baker said:
Our city electricians use the Arlington as standard in tree planters, alongside public sidewalks. They hold up OK. The WR GFCIs make a difference. And they are controlled with a master relay/PE, turned off if not used for holiday lighting.
Click to expand...
The owner won’t approve because it’s a very high class area. They don’t want the stakes no matter what lol
 
KyleDurham1221 said:
There is 100 of these boxes in 100 different tree beds and the owner would never approve of the visible stakes. Legrand told you definitely cannot use GFCIs in the box?
Click to expand...

Yes, that was from my Legrand rep. They brought some samples because this was right after they were released and it was a large order.

And 100??? When i bought them they were $800/ea. for the box and quad recep insert. Someone is dropping serious money here in receptacles! Your local rep would be more than happy to talk to you about this install and help with a solution.

Is there any way you could have an outdoor sub panel that’s painted and concealed with landscaping? Or you could build a small pedestal with GFCI devices to route them to.

I did a very large outdoor residential lighting job not long ago, and we found an area behind some trees and poured a small concrete pad, built a little strut rack with a panel and several transformers, and once everything was painted green you don’t notice it at all. They put some shrubbery in front of the rack to hide it.


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Also I’ve got about 20 of Gard-N-Posts on order right now for an outdoor project at a very high value residential project, and I can come back and share some pics with you once they’re installed. We’re 3/wks out from install date. I’ve got some bronze for tree beds, and some green going within low shrubbery.


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brantmacga said:
Yes, that was from my Legrand rep. They brought some samples because this was right after they were released and it was a large order.

And 100??? When i bought them they were $800/ea. for the box and quad recep insert. Someone is dropping serious money here in receptacles! Your local rep would be more than happy to talk to you about this install and help with a solution.

Is there any way you could have an outdoor sub panel that’s painted and concealed with landscaping? Or you could build a small pedestal with GFCI devices to route them to.

I did a very large outdoor residential lighting job not long ago, and we found an area behind some trees and poured a small concrete pad, built a little strut rack with a panel and several transformers, and once everything was painted green you don’t notice it at all. They put some shrubbery in front of the rack to hide it.


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It’s a 300,000$ install 60 circuits total split between 4 different towers. Worst part is the home run panels for each tower got done in size 2 copper by crappy contractor. Trimmed the wires to shove em into the breakers and no labels on the neutrals. Real mess.
 
brantmacga said:
Also I’ve got about 20 of Gard-N-Posts on order right now for an outdoor project at a very high value residential project, and I can come back and share some pics with you once they’re installed. We’re 3/wks out from install date. I’ve got some bronze for tree beds, and some green going within low shrubbery.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I agree they are discrete but not discrete enough in this instance
 
KyleDurham1221 said:
I agree they are discrete but not discrete enough in this instance
Click to expand...

You don’t necessarily have to put them in the same bed, just somewhere nearby within 100’.

Sometimes you’ve just got to lay out the pros and cons and help the customer realize what’s in their best interest. The worst thing that happens is they nuisance trip and the customer is blaming you for a poor install.

Present them with options and let them think it over for awhile. Consult with the landscape architect as well. I’m sure they have some experience and input with hiding things. Sounds like a fun project though. I’m sure it’s going to look great.

One other thought; with this budget, if you were able to work out a location for an outdoor pedestal to group the GFI’s, it shouldn’t be out of reach to hire an artist to come in and paint it to blend in.


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brantmacga said:
You don’t necessarily have to put them in the same bed, just somewhere nearby within 100’.

Sometimes you’ve just got to lay out the pros and cons and help the customer realize what’s in their best interest. The worst thing that happens is they nuisance trip and the customer is blaming you for a poor install.

Present them with options and let them think it over for awhile. Consult with the landscape architect as well. I’m sure they have some experience and input with hiding things. Sounds like a fun project though. I’m sure it’s going to look great.

One other thought; with this budget, if you were able to work out a location for an outdoor pedestal to group the GFI’s, it shouldn’t be out of reach to hire an artist to come in and paint it to blend in.


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Click to expand...
The install is already done. The tree beds are each separated by 20-30’ of pavers this project had a huge footprint. I was hoping somebody would have a link to the correct GFCI covers for these boxes. Thanks a lot for the tips. Going to get in touch with legrand I think cause I gotta find a way to make the boxes work and safely.
 
KyleDurham1221 said:
The install is already done. The tree beds are each separated by 20-30’ of pavers this project had a huge footprint. I was hoping somebody would have a link to the correct GFCI covers for these boxes. Thanks a lot for the tips. Going to get in touch with legrand I think cause I gotta find a way to make the boxes work and safely.
Click to expand...




If that link doesn’t work, go back to the link @hillbilly1 shared and scroll down the cut sheet link


Page 5 shows the insert with decora openings, but it is an LV assembly.

Pages 6-7 have the line voltage device inserts and they both say it has to be an upstream GFCI. I can’t remember exactly because it’s been a couple of years since my project, but it came as a pre-built assembly and I don’t remember if you can just swap those insert covers.

But yes the best thing to do is call them and discuss. Maybe they’ve done more recent testing using GFCI’s. If you call the supplier the boxes came, they can get you on the phone with your area rep who can get you straight to the product line manager.

If you don’t have any luck there, PM me your location and i can get you a phone # from my area rep.


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