Summit
Member
- Location
- SF Bay Area
- Occupation
- EE
installing 3-4 in coming months, Pioneer Ultra Diamond, rated down to -13F; tested with battery backup, pulled ~900-w for 12kbtu unit; adding more solar PV as well. Wish there is a HP fireplace insert
CALIFORNIA ENERGY COMMISSION - Heat Pumps Are the Wave of the Future.
- Thread starter mtnelect
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wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
On reliability, the second graph at the reference below says that in 2021, it was no less reliable than average for the US. [It would be nice to get the data as a table rather than a plot, but all the outliers above the average are labeled, and California is not among those outliers.]
Cheers, Wayne
Knightryder12
Senior Member
- Location
- Clearwater, FL - USA
- Occupation
- Sr. Electrical Designer/Project Manager
Don't you guys get most of your power from other states? That's what I have read before. Cali only has two old power plants and have not or will not build more, so they purchase electricity from other states.On reliability, the second graph at the reference below says that in 2021, it was no less reliable than average for the US. [It would be nice to get the data as a table rather than a plot, but all the outliers above the average are labeled, and California is not among those outliers.]
Cheers, Wayne
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
Not sure how that's relevant? Anyway, looks like in 2021, it was 43%, so a lot but not a majority.
2021 Total System Electric Generation
Cheers, Wayne
mtnelect
HVAC & Electrical Contractor
- Location
- Southern California
- Occupation
- Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
Not sure how that's relevant? Anyway, looks like in 2021, it was 43%, so a lot but not a majority.
2021 Total System Electric Generation
www.energy.ca.gov
Cheers, Wayne
I was going to post that !
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
- Occupation
- Electrician
I am skeptical, because isn't about half of the cost of electricity the delivery/grid operation/maintenance? The grid is a very expensive thing to keep operating and maintained even if the energy is free.
Frank DuVal
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Engineer
That's an old number. Current Mini-Splits will heat with the outdoor temperature down to -13°F. You can buy units designed for cold places that will heat with outdoor temperature down to -26°F!
Run the load calculation at loadcalc.net
brycenesbitt
Senior Member
- Location
- United States
Vermont Utility Plans to End Outages by Giving Customers Batteries
Green Mountain Power is asking state regulators to let it buy batteries it will install at customers’ homes, saying doing so will be cheaper than putting up more power lines.
"Green Mountain Power is asking state regulators to let it buy batteries it will install at customers’ homes, saying doing so will be cheaper than putting up more power lines."
mtnelect
HVAC & Electrical Contractor
- Location
- Southern California
- Occupation
- Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
That's an old number. Current Mini-Splits will heat with the outdoor temperature down to -13°F. You can buy units designed for cold places that will heat with outdoor temperature down to -26°F!
Run the load calculation at loadcalc.net
That is true ... But consider the "Defrost" time. You might want to prepare for cooler air, for about 5 minutes. A small inconvenience for a larger electrical bill.
Birken Vogt
Senior Member
- Location
- Grass Valley, Ca
Where I live, the power was out for a week straight during this winter's snows, and a week during last years. Some were out 2 weeks or more. As well as days during some fire shutdowns. Of course I have a generator but also heat with a gravity wall furnace that needs no power. Would have been mighty cold with only a heat pump. Or the generator would have burned a ton of fuel, maybe a literal ton.On reliability, the second graph at the reference below says that in 2021, it was no less reliable than average for the US. [It would be nice to get the data as a table rather than a plot, but all the outliers above the average are labeled, and California is not among those outliers.]
Cheers, Wayne
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
Sounds like in your location, grid reliability is way below average. So it's understandable you'll need to make choices/tradeoffs the average Californian doesn't have to.
But it's a good point, if a heat pump is your primary heat, and you live in a cold climate, you'll either need a very reliable grid, a backup electric source, or a backup heat source.
Cheers, Wayne
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
You freeze when the power is out if you have a gas furnace with electric igniter and fan. Not too many houses with pilot light heaters any more.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
- Occupation
- Electrician
My heat is all electric and I am in the Northeast. It is indeed a concern to not have a backup source of heat in case of a winter power outage. My solution will be to get a small propane stove. With my large PV system I have "free" electricity so I don't need the propane stove other than for backup, but it will serve other purposes like nice ambience and something nice to sit in front of on a cold winter day. I'm just going to get the smallest unit I can find.
It’s much easier/more economical to provide backup power for a gas furnace than the same capacity of electric heat.
Birken Vogt
Senior Member
- Location
- Grass Valley, Ca
Have you heard of the Sierra Nevada foothills? Last winter and the one before that everyone was in the same boat for hundreds of miles up and down. I live 1 mile from the city limits. The cities were out of power too.
Below average, maybe if you average everyone who lives in the middle of LA. But for the Ca Dept of whatever to mandate everyone go all electric, when these are the real conditions, is not a great idea.
Let the people be free to buy what they want.
mtnelect
HVAC & Electrical Contractor
- Location
- Southern California
- Occupation
- Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
This program started in 1975, to stop construction of fossil fuel power plants which create pollution for the environment. Other programs like "HERS" (Home Energy Rating System) which have a "Special Inspector" inspect HVAC systems with special training and equipment that the AHJ does not have. Then on to appliances efficiency standards, that only can be sold in California.
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jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Meh. You still need a fairly expensive battery to run a typical furnace fan for more than a couple hours. I mean, broadly speaking, yes, you're right. But it's also easy to overestimate the difference between the two, if the latter is a heat pump. Consider people with a portable generator and manual transfer switch. Half of them bought a generator that's bigger than they really needed if they weren't backing up the heat pump. And then when you add the heat pump it's just the right size. They'll need more gas, yeah, but that's a pretty small additional hurdle.
The other thing to consider is that if the portable generator is capable of running the heat pump, you likely don’t have enough capacity left for anything else in the house.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
I disagree, and that was precisely my point. It just depends on the ratings and design of the equipment. And the temperature outside. Small to medium size variable speed heat pumps might use anywhere from 1-5kW and some people have 8-10kW portable generators.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
The equivalent of a zoned system is possible with mini-splits, in that a single outdoor unit can be piped to two or more indoor units. No ducting used. But if one "zone" requires cooling and one requires heating, they cannot both be serviced by the same outdoor unit.
The other equivalent of zoning with mini-splits simply uses multiple complete mini-split systems.
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