I Think There Are Several Violations Here…..

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Got a call from the Kohler dealer. They need to replace the transfer switch, or just the controls inside, but they can’t shut off the power without pulling the meter, and they can’t do that, so I went and looked at it.

Here’s what I found:






So the original installer came off the meter, which is fine, ran the SE conductors through a gutter, into an ATS with NO disconnect, feeders from the ATS aback through the same gutter, along with branch circuit feeders to a well house in the same gutter.

Now the gutter is a violation of I think it’s 230.7? No other conductors in same raceway with SE conductors.

However, all the gutters, ATS can, and nipples are metal. In my opinion, the N-G bond must be broken in the main panel, and made in the ATS, which needs to be SE-Rated with a main disco.

That’s how I do all of mine that are configured this way.

But I cant find the article that deals with multiple metal enclosures all grouped together being considered the SE equipment, and maybe I’m mistaken and that portion could be acceptable. However, I don’t install than that way.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

There is multiple other problems with this, some just poor workmanship.

The branch circuit conductor at the top, coming out of the Polaris connector, has been rubbing on a screw in the panel. It’s about to ground out at any time.

There are several open, unused knockouts, that were never blanked off.

They took the EGC from the well house Branch circuit, and instead of running it back into the main panel to then ground bar, just attached it to the inside of the gutter with a lug.

They used Noalox on some copper conductors. Nothing wrong with it, just a little goofy.

 

[jaggedben]

I think removing the factory conductors between the meter and the main is a 110.3(B) violation. Coming right off the meter to the ATS is not 'fine'.

They should have come off the feed through lugs at the bottom of the meter main to go to the ATS, then come back from the ATS and tapped to a subpanel to relocate the loads. IMO. Then they'd be able route it all through the gutter with no service conductors.

 

[letgomywago]

I think removing the factory conductors between the meter and the main is a 110.3(B) violation. Coming right off the meter to the ATS is not 'fine'.

They should have come off the feed through lugs at the bottom of the meter main to go to the ATS, then come back from the ATS and tapped to a subpanel to relocate the loads. IMO. Then they'd be able route it all through the gutter with no service conductors.

I agree and think this may be the best cost wise solution to the silly install

 

[Fred B]

I think removing the factory conductors between the meter and the main is a 110.3(B) violation. Coming right off the meter to the ATS is not 'fine'.

I believe that section of conductor is considered part of the UL of a meter/main, altering would invalidate the listing. Even use of piercing taps would be a violation.
Obviously whomever did the initial Gen install had no clue what he was looking at. Agree the cleanest and compliant method would have been to tie into the feed thru. But I could see the HO wanted even the circuits supplied by the meter main to also be powered by the generator.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Correct. Feed through lugs are already in use feeding the house, and that would leave the accessory buildings and water system off-line when the generator comes on.

Ive wondered about the violation coming directly off the meter, however, I do it all the time, my inspector passes it, and many panels it’s the only way to feed an ATS without a complete panel change out.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

I’m installing an SE rated ATS, running the SE conductors through the existing gutter, then a new gutter or PVC conduit back to the panel with the feeders, finding some way to intercept that conduit in the middle, moving things around in the main panel to make room for an isolated neutral bar, which will possibly require a 125A MLO panel next to the main, and adding bond bushings on the rigid nipples that contain SE conductors.

This entire install is a disaster. I can’t imagine it was done by an actual electrician.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It looks like this is a small generator that will power the existing panel. If that is an ats then the loads will need to be shed. Am I missing something.

I see a picture with red wires coming out of the top of a panel yet I don't see where that wire is in the other pictures.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Kind of hard to tell in the pic, but the red is a loop. It’s the feed to the well house, which they combined with another feed to I don’t know where, with that Polaris connector, to a 60A breaker.

The genny was not my install. It’s a Kohler HSB, I think 20kW. To my knowledge, they haven’t had any issues with overloading.

 

[jaggedben]

Correct. Feed through lugs are already in use feeding the house, and that would leave the accessory buildings and water system off-line when the generator comes on.

Right, so you gotta move them to a sub.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Right, so you gotta move them to a sub.

Yep. Everything in there is getting moved over to a new sub-panel, one with feed-through lugs.

The existing feed-through lugs will feed the new non-SE Rated transfer switch.

 

[norcal]

Where does that SER cable in the conduit go? Hopefully not underground.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Where does that SER cable in the conduit go? Hopefully not underground.

It does.

Goes to either a barn or the well house. And the EGC they just attached to the inside of the gutter, instead of running it to the ground bar.

Really too many violations to keep track of in this one.

I should send it to EC&M.

 

[norcal]

It does.

Goes to either a barn or the well house. And the EGC they just attached to the inside of the gutter, instead of running it to the ground bar.

Really too many violations to keep track of in this one.

I should send it to EC&M.

Do you have any idea how long the SER has been UG? Do have to wonder how long it will take for the bare aluminum EGC to corrode into nothing.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Do you have any idea how long the SER has been UG? Do have to wonder how long it will take for the bare aluminum EGC to corrode into nothing.

No idea. My understanding is the generator was installed about 20 years ago. Seems high to me, but that's what they said. I would assume the existing electrical must predate that.

Unfortunately, my SOW is only to re-route the electrical so the transfer switch can be replaced.

I have no doubt, after seeing this panel, there is plenty more crap elsewhere on the property.

 

[Fred B]

Do you have any idea how long the SER has been UG? Do have to wonder how long it will take for the bare aluminum EGC to corrode into nothing.

Depends on size, soil condition, and moisture level. Seen one around here that it might have been about 10yr on a damaged direct buried appropriate conductor size 4/0. Excavator snagged it and it eventually failed.