conductor size

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aptractor

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Hello, I have a question on sizing conductors that I hope someone can help me with. I am looking at Mike Holts commercial wire and raceway chart. Using the 120-amp continuous load example it lists a 150 amp breaker, conductor size 125% =150. In 310.16 requires a 1/0. Using thhn for derating for 4 conductors: Thhn 170 amps X 80% =136 not enough for the continuous load. Is my math wrong or am I reading the chart wrong.

Any help would be great.
 
Hello, I have a question on sizing conductors that I hope someone can help me with. I am looking at Mike Holts commercial wire and raceway chart. Using the 120-amp continuous load example it lists a 150 amp breaker, conductor size 125% =150. In 310.16 requires a 1/0. Using thhn for derating for 4 conductors: Thhn 170 amps X 80% =136 not enough for the continuous load. Is my math wrong or am I reading the chart wrong.

Any help would be great.
136 Amps is greater than the load of 120Amps, and can be protected by a 150A c/b per 240.4(B)
 
Can you answer Infinity's question? It's doubtful you have 4 CCC's.
 
From the table notes it says:
2) Maximum continuous nonlinear load in an ambient temperature of 30°C limited to 80 percent of the overcurrent device rating or the conductor ampacity, which ever is less [210.19(A), 240.6(A), 215.2(A)(1)].
First 3 columns:
OCPD/Copper Wire 75° Terminal/Maximum Continuous Ampere Load
150 amps-#1/0-120 amps
150 amps OCPD, 150 amp conductor but continuous load = 150*80%=120 amps.
The note says non-linear you can assume 4 CCC's. So that is 170 amps * 80%= 136 amps
The note also says whichever is less so you have 120 amps for the continuous and 136 amps for the 4 CCC's. 120 amps is less.
 
Thanks for your help. Not sure I completely understand the note but I will look into it more. Is there a code article you could reference?

Thanks for your help
 
Thanks for your help, I will keep reading.
You still have not answered the question of whether or not you actually have 4 current carrying conductors. Look at the section below. A standard 3 phase panel with a neutral will rarely have the neutral as a current carrying conductor.

Here is an explanation written up by Infinity

3Ø- 208Y/120 or 480Y/277 volt system-different circuit types:
A) 2 wire circuit w/ 1 ungrounded, 1 neutral = 2 CCC's
B) 3 wire circuit w/ 2 ungrounded, 1 neutral = 3 CCC's
C) 4 wire circuit w/ 3 ungrounded, 1 neutral = 3 CCC's*

Notes:
A) A normal 2 wire circuit has equal current flowing in each of the circuit conductors so they both count as CCC's.
B) In this circuit the neutral current will be nearly equal to the current in the ungrounded conductors so the neutral counts as a CCC
C) In this circuit the neutral will only carry the imbalance of the current between the three ungrounded conductors so it is not counted as a CCC, with an exception, *if the current is more than 50% nonlinear (see below for NEC article 100 definition) then the neutral would count as a CCC.

1Ø- 120/240 volt system-different circuit types:
D) 2 wire circuit w/ 1 ungrounded, 1 neutral = 2 CCC's
E) 3 wire circuit w/ 2 ungrounded, 1 neutral = 2 CCC's

Notes:
D) A normal 2 wire circuit has equal current flowing in each of the circuit conductors so they both count as CCC's.
E) In this circuit the neutral will only carry the imbalance between the two ungrounded conductors so the neutral is not counted as a CCC.

Nonlinear Load. A load where the wave shape of the steady-state current does not follow the wave shape of the applied voltage.

Informational Note: Electronic equipment, electronic/electric-discharge lighting, adjustable-speed drive systems, and similar equipment may be nonlinear loads.

310.15(E) Neutral Conductor.

Neutral conductors shall be considered current carrying in accordance with any of the following:
  • (1)
    A neutral conductor that carries only the unbalanced current from other conductors of the same circuit shall not be required to be counted when applying the provisions of 310.15(C)(1).
  • (2)
    In a 3-wire circuit consisting of two phase conductors and the neutral conductor of a 4-wire, 3-phase, wye-connected system, the neutral conductor carries approximately the same current as the line-to-neutral load currents of the other conductors and shall be counted when applying 310.15(C)(1).
  • (3)
    On a 4-wire, 3-phase wye circuit where the major portion of the load consists of nonlinear loads, harmonic currents are present in the neutral conductor; the neutral conductor shall therefore be considered a current-carrying conductor.
 
Sorry, I am just going through the math in Mike's chart, Note one says four current carrying conductors so i assume all the values in the chart are based of that. I think what i am doing wrong is sizing the conductor before breaker and not taking overcurrent protection under 800 amps into consideration.
 
I wouldn't even look at that chart you linked to. If you have 3 current carrying conductors then you don't have to de-rate. 120 amps x continuous load is 150 amps. Look at the table 310.15 under 75 C
 
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