regarding small gas Gens and ATS…

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Isaiah

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On Small Emerg Generators (45kW)
Does the vendor generally require the associated ATS to be a SPECIFIC TYPE in order for the warranty to be maintained?


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One manufacturer's ATS will not necessarily play well with another manufacturer's generator.
What manufacturer equipment are you looking at >?
 
Isaiah said:
On Small Emerg Generators (45kW)
Does the vendor generally require the associated ATS to be a SPECIFIC TYPE in order for the warranty to be maintained?
Click to expand...

The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 does not allow the manufacturer to void a warranty because some other product was bought/not bought. Unless that product caused the failure. The brand of transfer switch is irrelevant to the operation of a generator.

Most manufacturers do not build their own switches anyway, but are relabeling a switch from some other manufacturer.

There have also been supply chain issues lately that necessitate getting switches from third parties in order to complete projects on time.

I am not aware of any manufacturer who has ever questioned us on what brand/type/model of transfer switch was installed when doing a warranty repair on a generator.
 
We install a lot of ASCO switches and we rarely know what generator is being connected.
As far as warranty I would think what ATS is installed is irrelevant to the generator warranty.
But as Gus said some ATS's don't play well with some generators.
 
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It also depends if it’s a “smart switch” or dumb switch (Like Generac’s) The most common is a transferswitch using a two wire start contact, then the switch decides wether to transfer or not. Generac switches get the command from the generator (on the smaller sizes) Onan three wire switches can be used on two wire systems with little modification (third wire just powers the switch when both sources are off.)
 
augie47 said:
One manufacturer's ATS will not necessarily play well with another manufacturer's generator.
What manufacturer equipment are you looking at >?
Click to expand...

Augie, we have a Generac gas generator and ASCO ATS, 300 series automatic open transition transfer switch


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hillbilly1 said:
It also depends if it’s a “smart switch” or dumb switch (Like Generac’s) The most common is a transferswitch using a two wire start contact, then the switch decides wether to transfer or not. Generac switches get the command from the generator (on the smaller sizes) Onan three wire switches can be used on two wire systems with little modification (third wire just powers the switch when both sources are off.)
Click to expand...

Hillbilly1, can the ASCO series 300 ATS be used with the Generac genset?


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The resi grade Generac and, now, virtually all resi grade gensets use all kinds of nonsense non-standard schemes. Been a while since I have done a resi grade Generac, but they used to have a setting in the genset to allow you to use a standard 2 wire start system so you could use a standard ATS such as an Asco ATS.
 
texie said:
The resi grade Generac and, now, virtually all resi grade gensets use all kinds of nonsense non-standard schemes. Been a while since I have done a resi grade Generac, but they used to have a setting in the genset to allow you to use a standard 2 wire start system so you could use a standard ATS such as an Asco ATS.
Click to expand...

Thanks texie. I will dig into this tomorrow.


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Isaiah said:
Hillbilly1, can the ASCO series 300 ATS be used with the Generac genset?


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If this is a commercial/industrial Generac it will be a standard 2 wire start that has been used for decades by all vendors. If it is a resi grade Generac, see my previous post-not sure if they still have a setting to allow this.
 
texie said:
If this is a commercial/industrial Generac it will be a standard 2 wire start that has been used for decades by all vendors. If it is a resi grade Generac, see my previous post-not sure if they still have a setting to allow this.
Click to expand...

Texie. It’s a G4.5L gas genset. This should fall under commercial-industrial, correct? Thus the two wire start should be compatible with the ASCO, ATS.


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On Generac, the largest air cooled is 26kW.

Above that they are liquid cooled.

Generac air cooled generally need to use a Generac ATS, as they are 6 wire control.

Generac liquid cooled are 2 wire start.

You can get a 2 wire start kit for the air cooled. It’s part number 7109.

So your 45kW *should* be a 2 wire start. You’ll have to run a separate charge circuit. I know Kohler is like that.
 
Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:
On Generac, the largest air cooled is 26kW.

Above that they are liquid cooled.

Generac air cooled generally need to use a Generac ATS, as they are 6 wire control.

Generac liquid cooled are 2 wire start.

You can get a 2 wire start kit for the air cooled. It’s part number 7109.

So your 45kW *should* be a 2 wire start. You’ll have to run a separate charge circuit. I know Kohler is like that.
Click to expand...

So you mean a separate charge circuit from a battery, for example?


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On the Generac 6 wire, the battery charger originates in the ATS. It’s 2 of the 6 wires.

On the Kohler 2 wire start models, we just run a 240 circuit off of a 2 pole breaker from a panel. It just has to be one that will never powered by the genset, so the battery will continue to charge when on gen power.
 
Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:
On the Generac 6 wire, the battery charger originates in the ATS. It’s 2 of the 6 wires.

On the Kohler 2 wire start models, we just run a 240 circuit off of a 2 pole breaker from a panel. It just has to be one that will never powered by the genset, so the battery will continue to charge when on gen power.
Click to expand...

Thanks again.


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Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:
On the Generac 6 wire, the battery charger originates in the ATS. It’s 2 of the 6 wires.

On the Kohler 2 wire start models, we just run a 240 circuit off of a 2 pole breaker from a panel. It just has to be one that will never powered by the genset, so the battery will continue to charge when on gen power.
Click to expand...
Are you using a mwbc? The block heater and charger on kohler is usually 120, at least up to the 60 kw, maybe even up to 125 kw.
 
Isaiah said:
Hillbilly1, can the ASCO series 300 ATS be used with the Generac genset?


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If it’s a two wire start, but some of the controllers Generac uses are not compatible with life safety, it takes the generator too long to start, and that delay is not adjustable. We had to pull one because of that. Once the generator got the signal to start, it would take up to 15 seconds to respond to the request. With life safety, it must start AND transfer in under 10 seconds. Hopefully Generac has fixed that programming flaw by now. They wanted several thousand to fix ours, even though it was a 60 kw 277/480 commercial unit.
 
All Generac generators can be reconfigured to use a standard 2 wire start system.

On the air cooled you have to change a few wires behind the controller.

Most liquid cooled Generac res/comm up to 150 kw come configured to use their non standard 6 wire setup but already have the terminals for 2 wire since they know lots of people will do it this way.

Always wire your battery charge circuit from something powered by the generator. If your alternator fails, it will keep the generator alive during an outage. (At least on Kohler. Generac does not enable their charger during running. Ask me how I know. Had to scab in a Kohler charger to get the customer operational for the duration of the outage.)

It is correct most Generac will not meet 10 second start time requirements. Kohler seems to be preprogrammed to meet it even on small resi stuff.
 
Since there have been a few mentions in this thread about the 10 second rule for an Article 700 installation, note that any genset used for Artile 700 compliance must be manfacturer certified as a NFPA Level 1 genset. Level 1 certification includes a number of things beyond just the 10 second rule.
I'm not aware of any residential grade gensets that meet Level 1. In fact, most clearly say in their docs that they are not approved for Article 700 systems.
 
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