Trouble with Siemens arc fault breakers!

T

tonypotmesil

Member
Location
Omaha NE
Occupation
Electrical company owner
What would cause a Siemens arc fault breaker to trip however a Siemens arc fault GFI breaker will hold all day with the same applied load such as a heat gun or a vacuum?

This has happened on more than one circuit, we've used a few different Siemens Arc faults from the same batch and even a couple store-bought so totally different batch as well?
 
Unfortunately, there is no answer other than a law suit against the manufacturers. If the combo breakers will hold, I would just keep my sanity and swap the AFCIs out and be done with it.

-Hal
 
tonypotmesil said:
Siemens arc fault breaker to trip however a Siemens arc fault GFI breaker will hold all day with the same applied load
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While UL 1699 never required AFCI's to detect upstream events, utility issues are known to trip AFCI's, including Leviton's combo A/GFCI outlets.

Siemens combo A/GFCI may have filtered out upstream detection by design, if both detectors run thru the same CT coils, or by accident if extra GFCI circuitry somehow causes interference to cancel out the upstream signals.
 
ramsy said:
Siemens combo A/GFCI may have filtered out upstream detection by design, if both detectors run thru the same CT coils, or by accident if extra GFCI circuitry somehow causes interference to cancel out the upstream signals.
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Who cares at this point. It's obvious that they are totally useless for their intended purpose and need to be gotten rid of. The millions of wasted man-hours and dollars spent because we are forced to use them is unconscionable.

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
Who cares at this point. It's obvious that they are totally useless for their intended purpose and need to be gotten rid of. The millions of wasted man-hours and dollars spent because we are forced to use them is unconscionable.

-Hal
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What are you talking about, AFCI’s work fine for people who understand them.

You’re confused with LED light bulbs, and energy codes.

The reason AFCI’s are going away is because they slow down laborers.
 
ramsy said:
What are you talking about, AFCI’s work fine for people who understand them.

You’re confused with LED light bulbs, and energy codes.

The reason AFCI’s are going away is because they slow down laborers.
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I am not exactly sure what you are saying. I do agree that many, probably the vast majority, of AFCI "nuisance trips" are due to incorrect wiring. That said, I still don't think they result in any increased level of safety and are a complete waste.
 
electrofelon said:
I do agree that many, probably the vast majority, of AFCI "nuisance trips" are due to incorrect wiring.
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I don't agree with that at all, especially from reading the nuisance trip posts here over the years. Maybe 1 out of 100 is because of a wiring problem and those mostly cause the GFCI function to trip.

electrofelon said:
That said, I still don't think they result in any increased level of safety and are a complete waste.
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Exactly!
ramsy said:
What are you talking about, AFCI’s work fine for people who understand them.
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Yeah, right. We're all a bunch of idiots.

ramsy said:
You’re confused with LED light bulbs, and energy codes.
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Something else that needs to be looked into for deletion.

-Hal
 
electrofelon said:
I still don't think they result in any increased level of safety and are a complete waste.
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Only service electricians can love these things, because the outlet versions can help maintain existing wiring forever.

While most AFCI is junk, subject to utility excursions, fails to test in the energized state, and chases nuisance trips with firmware updates, Leviton OBCD always detected dilapidated wiring & defects missed by GFCI’s, with minimal nuisance.

Any new tech is a learning curve that makes enemies with some, but AFCI breakers aggravate the entire industry, and the SPD mandate was too late.
 
hbiss said:
I don't agree with that at all, especially from reading the nuisance trip posts here over the years. Maybe 1 out of 100 is because of a wiring problem and those mostly cause the GFCI function to trip.
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I have come across a lot of electricians and homeowners who talk about all the the problems they/their electrician is having with AFCI's. I suspect there is a pretty large pool of not so great resi electricians who do sloppy work and have all sorts of problems getting the AFCI's to hold. I'll bet 99% of the time it's neutrals from different circuits tied together or a ground touching the neutral on a receptacle. Note I am not in any way defending AFCI's and would be the first to give a guilty verdict and sending the people behind these to a lengthy prison sentence.
 
electrofelon said:
I am not exactly sure what you are saying. I do agree that many, probably the vast majority, of AFCI "nuisance trips" are due to incorrect wiring. That said, I still don't think they result in any increased level of safety and are a complete
Click to expand...

electrofelon said:
I am not exactly sure what you are saying. I do agree that many, probably the vast majority, of AFCI "nuisance trips" are due to incorrect wiring. That said, I still don't think they result in any increased level of safety and are a complete waste.
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Siemens had a lawsuit against them in 2024 for nuisance tripping of afci.. in the last couple months I have replaced several Siemens breakers that do not even require a neutral for the afci protection, all the neutrals are together in the panel.. type qaf2n only requires the hot to be installed in the breaker, making it very simple usually.. pretty much all the Siemens breakers I have purchased in the last 45 days have caused nothing but issues if they were standard Arc faults... Again with the same load applied they hold all day long on AFGF breakers which are even more sensitive...
I have used Siemens breakers pretty much since I have owned the company.. other than the last 45 days, I have probably only ever replaced two or three Siemens breakers in the last 5 years...
 
tonypotmesil said:
Siemens had a lawsuit against them in 2024 for nuisance tripping of afci.. in the last couple months I have replaced several Siemens breakers that do not even require a neutral for the afci protection, all the neutrals are together in the panel.. type qaf2n only requires the hot to be installed in the breaker, making it very simple usually.. pretty much all the Siemens breakers I have purchased in the last 45 days have caused nothing but issues if they were standard Arc faults... Again with the same load applied they hold all day long on AFGF breakers which are even more sensitive...
I have used Siemens breakers pretty much since I have owned the company.. other than the last 45 days, I have probably only ever replaced two or three Siemens breakers in the last 5 years...
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Interesting. I use Siemens and SQ D homeline for resi, and I honestly don't think I have ever had a nuisance trip. Last problem I had a traced to a neutral wire caught in the j-box cover of a can causing a N-G bond.
 
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