Discussion Topic: Electrical Permits and Reconfiguring Existing Spaces

[msilva94]

For tl;dr

Where do we draw the line between modifying furniture for usage in an existing space and requiring permit drawings?
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A small suite (originally retail/recreational) is being converted into office space. The suite has ample outlets and no plans to alter the electrical system. My initial take was: “This could be grandfathered in without permits or design support, although a change in occupancy might trigger permit requirements depending on the AHJ. They could still ask for a full fit-out design.”

Then a question came up about powering desks. The furniture is essentially self-contained, designed to be plugged into outlets or powerwhipped to adjacent units. If they use or modify the furniture, would that change permit requirements?

Since the building’s electrical system isn’t being altered, I still lean toward no permits needed, though I'm cautious about how circuit loads are managed and if that will raise a concern to the AHJ.

It raises a broader question: how much can we reconfigure a space or power furniture within an existing space before crossing into permit territory?

What do you guys think?

 

[Elect117]

It really depends on your local. The rules for permits vary between cities, states, townships, etc.

When in doubt, file for a permit and let them tell you it is not required. Then you get the paper trail if anyone asks about it. Or email them and get the "permit is not required" reply in writing.

 

[msilva94]

It really depends on your local. The rules for permits vary between cities, states, townships, etc.

This follows my train of thought.

When in doubt, file for a permit and let them tell you it is not required. Then you get the paper trail if anyone asks about it. Or email them and get the "permit is not required" reply in writing.

Good idea, I think I'll recommend that they file it anyway.

 

[garbo]

My state still does not have a state electricsl.license and can be frustrating following different rules in every town & city. While replacing a single pole switch at a friends house a township inspector came by and to!d me that I had to get a license then a permit for a 5 minute free job that I performed. He even wrote down.my trucks license plate. I tried to reason with him saying in most locations you do not need a permit for work under $100 or replacing existing luminaries .Told me all electrical work requires a permit so I said if I charged a friend or relative $5 to rep!ace a device that I would have to obtain a permit then pay to have it inspected making a $5 freebie job into a $200 job. Yep.

 

[msilva94]

My state still does not have a state electricsl.license and can be frustrating following different rules in every town & city. While replacing a single pole switch at a friends house a township inspector came by and to!d me that I had to get a license then a permit for a 5 minute free job that I performed. He even wrote down.my trucks license plate. I tried to reason with him saying in most locations you do not need a permit for work under $100 or replacing existing luminaries .Told me all electrical work requires a permit so I said if I charged a friend or relative $5 to rep!ace a device that I would have to obtain a permit then pay to have it inspected making a $5 freebie job into a $200 job. Yep.

The NEC Article 100 states that a "Qualified Person" must be on site to do the work except for in residential cases where the work is done by the Home Owner.
It is my understanding that this isn't so much a code requirement as much as it is an advisory note, but a lot of AHJ's have adopted it as a code requirement. How did a township inspector coincidentally know to come to the house at the same time you were doing the work? Sounds like someone wanted to get you/the home owner in trouble!

 

[garbo]

The NEC Article 100 states that a "Qualified Person" must be on site to do the work except for in residential cases where the work is done by the Home Owner.
It is my understanding that this isn't so much a code requirement as much as it is an advisory note, but a lot of AHJ's have adopted it as a code requirement. How did a township inspector coincidentally know to come to the house at the same time you were doing the work? Sounds like someone wanted to get you/the home owner in trouble!

Had my work van parked in his driveway directly in front of a busy street. Had at least 3 ladders & a conduit storage box on the roof of van. For some reason talking with other trades this occurs most in small towns. Only got questioned once in my big city many years ago while I was replacing an old cloth covered 100 amp service cable for a GC 's garage he was selling. Inspector stopped me and asked if I had a permit . To!d him that I did not need one because I was only charging this good customer $99. Was only 15' of SEU cable only to the meter can.

 

[readydave8]

Small town inspector saw my truck at a house I bought to spiff up and sell, when he found put I wasn't doing electrical work, he made me pull permit for interior painting

 

[msilva94]

Small town inspector saw my truck at a house I bought to spiff up and sell, when he found put I wasn't doing electrical work, he made me pull permit for interior painting

Holy crap, you need a permit to paint?

 

[kwired]

The NEC Article 100 states that a "Qualified Person" must be on site to do the work except for in residential cases where the work is done by the Home Owner.

NEC does not say that. Many jurisdictions have a local rule that says something similar though. NEC has nothing to say about licensing or permits those are all local jurisdiction rules and do vary from place to place.

NEC does have a definition for "qualified person" in art 100. But really has no details of the mentioned skills, knowledge or training that are also terms within that definition. Again those are primarily determined by the AHJ and will vary from one jurisdiction to another.

 

[readydave8]

Holy crap, you need a permit to paint?

I doubt that anyone else does in that town

I found out he lived a few houses away, subsequently did some electrical work on same street without permit, parked behind house so he wouldn't see my truck

So it balanced out

 

[msilva94]

NEC does not say that. Many jurisdictions have a local rule that says something similar though. NEC has nothing to say about licensing or permits those are all local jurisdiction rules and do vary from place to place.

NEC does have a definition for "qualified person" in art 100. But really has no details of the mentioned skills, knowledge or training that are also terms within that definition. Again those are primarily determined by the AHJ and will vary from one jurisdiction to another.

You are correct, it is a definition.
"...Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to identify hazards and reduce the associated risk."

Throughout the NEC there is mention that Qualified Persons should do the work, but it does not directly state it.
"...only a Qualified Person should be working in live or hazardous conditions" (Article 110.26)
"Emergency system equipment shall be suitable for the maximum available fault current and shall be installed by qualified persons familiar with the system." (700.4).

With the two above as reference, it's good to mention they are working notes rather than code requirements.

I can see how this definition can be referenced, misused, and abused by the AHJ though.
I think OSHA might have more pull in regard to mandating Qualified Personnel.

 

[kwired]

You are correct, it is a definition.
"...Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to identify hazards and reduce the associated risk."

Throughout the NEC there is mention that Qualified Persons should do the work, but it does not directly state it.
"...only a Qualified Person should be working in live or hazardous conditions" (Article 110.26)
"Emergency system equipment shall be suitable for the maximum available fault current and shall be installed by qualified persons familiar with the system." (700.4).

With the two above as reference, it's good to mention they are working notes rather than code requirements.

I can see how this definition can be referenced, misused, and abused by the AHJ though.
I think OSHA might have more pull in regard to mandating Qualified Personnel.

A major factor when determining qualification by the AHJ is their licensing procedures. Holding an electrical license is a major step though non licensed can still be supervised by licensed individuals after all they need to learn somehow before they become "qualified". Jurisdictions can have different opinions on how close that supervision needs to be.

 

[Jraef]

When I had an office in Seattle, we put in modular furniture with whips, we didn’t need an electrical permit. But a few months later we got a surprise visit from the Fire Marshal because we had changed the building use from heavy manufacturing (ex-foundry) to light commercial. The Fire Marshal said no to the extension cords going from the nearest outlets to the modular furniture. They insisted on us moving the first unit to a wall to be plugged directly in (they were OK with the factory whips) or on floor outlets, even though there were none and it was a slab floor. So we ended up with useless barrier walls next to the interior walls and no cubicles at the windows, because there were no outlets at the window wall (foundry was built in 1895). The nice window wall with a view of the river became essentially a hallway. Such a waste.

We eventually remodeled when we built out to sublet other spaces and got permits to add outlets on the window walls. I left that area 28 years ago and drove by last month, the entire block was torn down and a new ugly concrete tilt-up is there now. Pity, it was a cool old building despite all if its faults.

 

[CoolWill]

I only get a permit if I absolutely have to. If I weren't altering the building wiring (or even if I did) and the other trades didn't have a permit, I wouldn't bother either.

 

[msilva94]

When I had an office in Seattle, we put in modular furniture with whips, we didn’t need an electrical permit. But a few months later we got a surprise visit from the Fire Marshal because we had changed the building use from heavy manufacturing (ex-foundry) to light commercial.

Honestly that's what I'm expecting to happen. Changing the occupancy from retail to office might cause a surprise visit from somebody and that somebody is going to require something. They've already put together a GA plan, so I'm planning to convince them to go ahead and pull permits anyway. Make the AHJ happy by crossing your t's, dotting your i's, and otherwise minding your p's and q's.