Moving an old pushomatic panel

J

JLVNYC

Member
Location
nyc
Occupation
tradesman
Recently, I was called in to give an estimate on installing some high hats and to redo some electrical circuits in their kitchen, in a 4th floor co-op apartment, in queens nyc. The owners want to gut the kitchen for a remodel, get rid of their popcorn ceiling, and install proper lighting as there was none. Upon getting there, the owner showed me where the panel was, and oh boy, I went from excited to do the job, to just puzzled and dismayed.

The panel is located in the kitchen behind the side panel of one of the lower cabinets. to paint a better picture, when facing the kitchen, it is in the shape of a 7. The panel is at the inside corner angle of the 7. you have to open that lower cabinet door and if you look inside you will see the side wall was cut out a bit, and there you will see the panel. The owner wants me to move it so that they can have a properly accessible panel, and so that when they redo the kitchen they can utilize that empty space. Right now the contractors plan was to put a corner sink so they can maximize on counter space.

I did not see any other panels in the apartment and as far as I saw, there were no electrical closets in the hallway. I am waiting on a reply from the building maintenance to see if I can get access to the electrical room in the basement, or if they can even shed more light on where the riser to feed the apartment comes from. I called an electrician I used to work with before he retired, and he said thats the type of job he would have to say sorry and walk away from, not worth the headache.

I attached a photo of the panel that the owner sent me after I left.
there are 4 conduits going into the panel from the bottom, out of the floor. none on top. The conduits are about a little over a foot tall from the floor. we believe the whip on the right goes to the electrical stove, and there is one armored cable on the left that most likely goes to the dishwasher as it seems to be the most recent addition.

I would like some opinions on what I can do to move this panel, and make it legal.
photo 1
photo 2
photo 3
 
If you move this panel and there are any multiwire circuits, remember that one leg is on the left and the other is on the right. (at the time this was installed, there was no requirement for simultaneous disconnect of both hots for a multiwire circuit) That is why top two breakers in the photos have a bracket going between the left and the right. Those are two pole breakers.
 
Bet the other Apt. have similar set ups.

Moved quit a few such setups Depending on access and how the branch circuits are run (in the bottom or the top) and how the Feeder is run into the panel Terminate branches as a Junction box and extend the branches to new Panel location. Also Feeder will need to be extended. Plan out a route for removal of sheet rock. Expect push back of some level to the more extensive opening of the walls or ceilings to run wires. Not sure of NYC code on AFCI and extension of branch wires over 6ft. but might have to plan for that as well, Upstate that is just a given.
 
JLVNYC said:
Right. but any advice on how to move this and make this legal with a new panel?
Click to expand...
Kind of need a lot more information about layout and construction to be able to help much.

Looks like everything goes down from that location, likely into the floor? If you don't want to repull what is there you probably need to find a way to leave a junction box there and add more lines to get to wherever the new panel location will be. This could result in the remodeling needing to have some ability to work around whatever you may want to do, like maybe furring a wall out so you can run raceways in or behind the new finish and still having some way to access the mentioned junction box as it likely will need to go right were that panelboard currently is.

If there is accessible ceiling below that may open other options, but also may add further complications as it probably is within another tenant space.
 
Guaranteed it has shared & crossed neutrals and the GFCI (Grand Fault Circuit Interrupters) and AFCI (Arch Fault Circuit Interrupters) will not work.
 
Last edited:
Rip the guts out of the panel, bolt a piece of sheet metal over the breaker holes in the cover, and use the can as a splice box.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
What is on the other side of the wall where the panel is currently located?
Click to expand...
Its all concrete. Facing the panel, to the right is the main building hallway for all the apartments. The wall behind the panel leads to the building laundry room, which also has all the meters for the apartments. The panel is at least 15" away from both sides.
 
kwired said:
Kind of need a lot more information about layout and construction to be able to help much.

Looks like everything goes down from that location, likely into the floor? If you don't want to repull what is there you probably need to find a way to leave a junction box there and add more lines to get to wherever the new panel location will be. This could result in the remodeling needing to have some ability to work around whatever you may want to do, like maybe furring a wall out so you can run raceways in or behind the new finish and still having some way to access the mentioned junction box as it likely will need to go right were that panelboard currently is.

If there is accessible ceiling below that may open other options, but also may add further complications as it probably is within another tenant space.
Click to expand...
Yes, i mentioned already that all the conduits run into the floor.
Yes definitely working with the contractor to see what can be done if i have to run raceways to the new location.
I am thinking to remove the old panel thats there. Cut the conduits down as low as i can.
Then, 90 elbows and nipples on all the conduits.
That might give leave me with enough wire to mount a JB on the siding of the new cabinet panelboard. Then from there run the raceways to wherever i will install the new panel.

Sorry no accessible ceilings, and yes it would definitely be in the tenants space if there were.
 
infinity said:
Can you use the old panel as a junction box and extend the conductors to a new location?
Click to expand...
That is sortve the plan. Even if i convert it to a JB, i still have to move it a bit to an acceptable accessible location. So i have to plan out how to move the jb a bit.
 
My thoughts about junction box location:

Use the space below the cabinet floor. Work with the GC to get a cabinet floor designed to be lifted up for access. This would create space for a huge (if shallow) JB
 
JLVNYC said:
Doesn't make it legal, if the sink is going to be put in that corner.
Click to expand...
Inside a kitchen cabinet is accessible. A junction box only has to be accessible. A panelboard has to be "readily accessible" and is why a panelboard can not be inside the kitchen cabinet. As it is right now would be fine if it were just a junction box and not a panelboard in there, from the accessibility aspect anyway.

Definition of accessible doesn't contain any information on how convenient it has to be, but the more convenient the happier anybody that ever needs to get to it will be.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top