Fixture Install

[Alwayslearningelec]

So can anyone think of a reason WIRING/BOX WISE, why you would need to know if a fixture would be installed in a non accessible gyp ceiling as opposed to an accessible 2x2 acoustical ceiling?

 

[ptonsparky]

The box needs to be accessible.

 

[hbiss]

Different box and supports for a hung ceiling and a gyp ceiling.

-Hal

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

The box needs to be accessible.

It does! So how does that change things?

 

[augie47]

It does! So how does that change things?

In your post you indicated one ceiling was accessible and one not accessible. If then box is in a non-accessible ceiling then the box is inaccessible and thus a violation.

 

[hbiss]

So can anyone think of a reason WIRING/BOX WISE, why you would need to know if a fixture would be installed in a non accessible gyp ceiling as opposed to an accessible 2x2 acoustical ceiling?

In your post you indicated one ceiling was accessible and one not accessible. If then box is in a non-accessible ceiling then the box is inaccessible and thus a violation.

Huh? Am I missing something here? How can a box for a fixture be non-accessible? We install boxes and wiring for fixtures in existing ceilings that are non-accessible all the time. The BOX is certainly accessible by removing the fixture. The wiring is fished. If this is new work, a box is installed to the framing that will be accessible because it extends through a hole in the sheetrock. Wiring is run before the ceiling is sheetrocked.

With an acoustical ceiling, access will always be available by removing tiles so that you can reach in and install a box that extends through the tile so that the fixture can attach to it. Wiring is installed above the ceiling.

The only major difference in any of these situations is the type of box needed. An old work box for sheet rock is different than a new work sheetrock box which is different than one used with an acoustical ceiling. They differ in their mounting/support/installation.

-Hal

 

[ptonsparky]

How?
Put a 4 sq into a non accessible attic or space. Drop fixture whips down to several surface mount fixtures at predetermined locations.

 

[hbiss]

How?
Put a 4 sq into a non accessible attic or space. Drop fixture whips down to several surface mount fixtures at predetermined locations.

Sure, but I'm not getting that that's what he's talking about.

-Hal

 

[ptonsparky]

Sure, but I'm not getting that that's what he's talking about.

-Hal

Granted. IDK exactly what his question is either.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Huh? Am I missing something here? How can a box for a fixture be non-accessible? We install boxes and wiring for fixtures in existing ceilings that are non-accessible all the time. The BOX is certainly accessible by removing the fixture. ...

-Hal

410.118 added in the 2020 code complicates this.

410.118 Access to Other Boxes.
Luminaires recessed in ceilings, floors, or walls shall not be used to access outlet, pull, or junction boxes or conduit bodies, unless the box or conduit body is an integral part of the listed luminaire.

I read this as saying that the box must be a physical part of the luminaire. It prohibits a box above a non-accessible ceiling connected to the luminaire via a fixture whip.
A public comment to this change tried to add an exception for 2x2 and larger luminaires used in a non-accessible ceiling, but that was rejected by the CMP.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Huh? Am I missing something here? How can a box for a fixture be non-accessible? We install boxes and wiring for fixtures in existing ceilings that are non-accessible all the time. The BOX is certainly accessible by removing the fixture. The wiring is fished. If this is new work, a box is installed to the framing that will be accessible because it extends through a hole in the sheetrock. Wiring is run before the ceiling is sheetrocked.

With an acoustical ceiling, access will always be available by removing tiles so that you can reach in and install a box that extends through the tile so that the fixture can attach to it. Wiring is installed above the ceiling.

The only major difference in any of these situations is the type of box needed. An old work box for sheet rock is different than a new work sheetrock box which is different than one used with an acoustical ceiling. They differ in their mounting/support/installation.

-Hal

Correct you can remove the fixture to gain access in a non accessible ceiling. I assume it has to be within a distance that makes it accessible.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

410.118 added in the 2020 code complicates this.

I read this as saying that the box must be a physical part of the luminaire. It prohibits a box above a non-accessible ceiling connected to the luminaire via a fixture whip.
A public comment to this change tried to add an exception for 2x2 and larger luminaires used in a non-accessible ceiling, but that was rejected by the CMP.

Wow. Thanks. So you need to wire directly into the fixture with the branch ckt when in non accessible ceiling?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Wow. Thanks. So you need to wire directly into the fixture with the branch ckt when in non accessible ceiling?

Starting with the 2020 code, that is correct.

 

[hbiss]

Wow. Thanks. So you need to wire directly into the fixture with the branch ckt when in non accessible ceiling?

Well, depends. Careful how you interpret "wire directly into the fixture". With this kind of fixture I take that to mean that the fixture must be mounted directly to the box in the ceiling. I understood that you are referring to this kind of fixture.

Or, if the fixture is not designed to mount to a box like the recessed 2x2 example, with a sheetrock ceiling the wiring must terminate directly in the fixture. Not in what would be a buried splice box with a whip to the fixture.

With a hung ceiling however, a splice box and whip would be allowable because the box is accessible by removing a tile.

-Hal

 

[don_resqcapt19]

With a hung ceiling however, a splice box and whip would be allowable because the box is accessible by removing a tile.

We did a lot of projects that had a drywall ceiling and used a "ceiling mounting adapter". We would always have a box above that opening and a fixture whip for the luminaire. Starting with the 2020 code, that became a violation, even though the fixture lifts out of the frame.

 

[hbiss]

We did a lot of projects that had a drywall ceiling and used a "ceiling mounting adapter". We would always have a box above that opening and a fixture whip for the luminaire. Starting with the 2020 code, that became a violation, even though the fixture lifts out of the frame.

Right and we have several discussions about the legality of those "wafer" type LED downlights that have the driver and junction box thrown up in the ceiling through the hole before the fixture is installed.

-Hal

 

[Strathead]

We did a lot of projects that had a drywall ceiling and used a "ceiling mounting adapter". We would always have a box above that opening and a fixture whip for the luminaire. Starting with the 2020 code, that became a violation, even though the fixture lifts out of the frame.

And that has to change again. It is just plain STUPID. I have a 2 x 4 fixture that lifts out of the ceiling. I can climb up in using it, but I can't use it as access to the junction box? Maybe, if we have two we can call each one an access hole that a person can climb up in and crawl over to access the junction box for the other fixture. DUMB, DUMB, DUMB.