Upsized Wiring

Doc13067

Doc13067

Senior Member
Location
Bucks County/Philadelphia, PA USA
Hey guys, I have never failed an inspection, but I want to get your take on something. I had a job where a property was condemned because the resident lost his mind and cut a bunch of wires in his electrical panel. The panel was in a closet, but I got a permit to repair it and spoke to the inspector about my plans and got his verbal approval. I repaired the panel by replacing the guts, and the inspector came out and said it looks great, but he noticed the service cable outside had cracks in the sheathing so he couldn’t pass the inside, even though my permit had nothing to do with the service cable and the resident did not do anything to damage the service cable. So now because I have to do a full service I have to move the panel because it can’t be in the closet. So I got the permit for the full service and move it outside of the closet and for all the lines I ran from the old panel to the new panel I ran 12/2 even in cases where the wiring in the old panel is 14/2. I then put 15 amp breakers on all of these branch circuits even though the portion from the new panel to the old panel is upsized.

The inspector then came out and said because I opened the walls. I have to run 20 amp circuits to the kitchen and bathroom. While he was there, I found the kitchen and bathroom circuits in the old panel and they were 12 gauge thankfully so that stopped me from having to run new circuits to the kitchen and bathroom, but he said I was not allowed to have them on the 15 amp breakers because of the requirement for those circuits to be 20 amp, even though I did not run kitchen and bathroom circuits in my job (it was a service replacement). Then he said since my 15 amp breakers for the other circuits are on 12 gauge wires they should be able to go on 20 amp breakers but since they can’t, I need to label all of the wires for 15 amps and put 20 amp breakers on the kitchen and bathroom. Has anyone ever had a problem with sizing conductors? I never would’ve thought it would be a problem. In fact I’ve had to upsize them for accounting for voltage drop and I’ve even had engineers required them to be upsized in certain cases. I’m just sort of baffled Than. I would like to understand the logic.
 
ptonsparky said:
I Never had a problem with putting smaller breakers on anything. As you can tell, YMMV. Seems like he asking for things that have no NEC backing. Did you have him quote an article?
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No, I just made up labels and put them on the wires and now I’m driving around looking for someone that stocks the particular breakers because I just want to be done with it. For the kitchens and bathrooms I believe he is Siding the requirement that they be on 20 amp circuits but I don’t understand how it applies to replacing a service and I have no idea what article could possibly prohibit upsizing conductor sizes.
 
At first I was thinking he added extra stuff because the house was condemned and the homeowner would need to reapply for the occupancy permit and those things can come up during the occupancy inspections.

But hearing the nonsense about #12 on 15A as being an issue is really weird.

The only issue with upsized wire is interpretations on 250.122(B) - upsizing the EGC proportionally to the wire increase. But he didn't quote that.
 
infinity said:
Your inspector is clueless. Also labels not required even if you oversize the conductors.
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I thought so. He is usually in and out but in this case he seemed to be making up rules and I was/am truly dumbfounded. I try to understand the logic in things because I like to learn and I want to always be improving, but I don’t even understand why I needed to replace the service cable when I was just repairing the damage to the panel originally. The issue with 12 gauge on 15 amp breakers is totally ridiculous.
 
infinity said:
If you think about it if this were an actual code rule (it isn't) you could never oversize conductors for things like voltage drop, derating, or temperature correction, etc.
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Voltage drop was my prime example of oversized conductors! He is saying that somebody could open it up later on and see 12 gauge wires and increase the breaker to a 20 amp but isn’t it our job as electricians too look deeper than that? Sort of like I did when I put the 15 amp breaker in because I knew the branch circuit had 14 gauge conductors in it? It’s very silly and I’m going to continue to do what I know is right on other jobs
 
Doc13067 said:
Voltage drop was my prime example of oversized conductors! He is saying that somebody could open it up later on and see 12 gauge wires and increase the breaker to a 20 amp but isn’t it our job as electricians too look deeper than that? Sort of like I did when I put the 15 amp breaker in because I knew the branch circuit had 14 gauge conductors in it? It’s very silly and I’m going to continue to do what I know is right on other jobs
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What you did was correct. The NEC is not based on "what ifs" in the future by unqualified individuals. You can go above and beyond the NEC and leave a label at the panel but that is not required. Personally I would not label it.
 
You can't understand his logic because he is not logical. You can up size wire or downsize brakers all day long as long as other requirements are met. Lug size etc. I can understand him wanting the kitchen and bath on 20 amp although if the house is old it probably predates the 20 a bathroom requirement.

As far as the cracked service cable he had no business failing you for that, not your problem. In MA if an inspector notices a violation on an inspection that is outside of the permit he is inspecting he is supposed to notify the owner in writing He can't hold you up as you had nothing to do with the service and a few cracks are probably not an imminent safety violation.

Any one of us could go out as an inspector that someone wired the day before and find something to crab about if you look hard enough. What job is 100% perfect?
 
Eddie702 said:
You can't understand his logic because he is not logical. You can up size wire or downsize brakers all day long as long as other requirements are met. Lug size etc. I can understand him wanting the kitchen and bath on 20 amp although if the house is old it probably predates the 20 a bathroom requirement.

As far as the cracked service cable he had no business failing you for that, not your problem. In MA if an inspector notices a violation on an inspection that is outside of the permit he is inspecting he is supposed to notify the owner in writing He can't hold you up as you had nothing to do with the service and a few cracks are probably not an imminent safety violation.

Any one of us could go out as an inspector that someone wired the day before and find something to crab about if you look hard enough. What job is 100% perfect?
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Agreed. In the end it got approved but lots of extra running around and silly labels on 12 AWG that says “15 Amp” as it’s attached to a 15 amp breaker lol. I can’t find a single person to tell me this was correct. And I don’t get how 210.12(C) automatically triggers 210.11(C). If the kitchen and bathroom were on 14 AWG I don’t understand how moving a panel would require me to ensure the kitchen and bathroom are up to the current standard (2017 for me).
 
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