What Kind Of Cable Was This?

Doing a whole house remodel..
If the sheath is bonded back to panel, as most is that I have found, the OCPD should trip if the sheath is energized.
Competence with Megger testing, Ohm meter, heat shrink at outlet wiring, and xFCI per 406.4(D) may satisfy remodel inspections, but disturbing existing cables can change test results, and GL policy wont warranty existing wiring, which risks your assets with any casualty claim.
 
I don’t know what the issue with NM cable is. There are literally millions upon millions of miles of it in millions of homes, and there isn’t an out of proportion issue with it, any more than any other installation.
Just my personal opinion from using AC, MC and NM for many years. Back in the 40's, 50's and 60's home builders were often given the choice of armored cable or Romex by the EC. Armored cable was an upsell and if you were building a custom home, it's what you used. Romex was what was used in those cheap cookie cutter development homes, modulars and manufactured homes. But eventually builders stopped caring about something the buyers couldn't see and saw how they could put more money in their pockets. Cheaper, less experienced labor, rodent damage, staples overdriven, nails into the cable, ground to neutral shorts- cheaper to pass those problems off onto the EC if and when they happen than spending the money upfront to make sure they won't happen to begin with.

-Hal
 
Since hacks prefer Romex, the absence of NM may presume absence of hack jobs.

One rare exception to that rule was posted to the forum last night.

We'll agree to disagree. Correlation does not equal causation. Hacks do many things, from drinking water to wearing shoes to using paint brushes. Being a "hack", whatever that term actually means, comes from within, not generally from the industry accepted standard products one chooses to install.

And thinking that snapping a snake oil device like an AFCI breaker into a panel makes you Cream of the Crop is pure lunacy in my opinion. But I'll leave it at that, as we work on opposite ends of the State and it's unlikely our work will ever intersect.
 
Prejudice with merit, if NM is the only wiring method attempted?
We have many homes and apartment complexes wired entirely in NM by licensed contractors who have been in business for decades. Other than service masts it is possible these contractors have not pulled conductors through raceway in many years.
 
and GL policy wont warranty existing wiring, which risks your assets with any casualty claim.
And the owner should be requesting to remove anything that compromises insurance coverage, or at least the EC should be informing them of such possibility, especially on some remodel job where you might at least want to replace anything that ends up exposed or is otherwise relatively easy to replace during such a project.
 
Just my personal opinion from using AC, MC and NM for many years. Back in the 40's, 50's and 60's home builders were often given the choice of armored cable or Romex by the EC. Armored cable was an upsell and if you were building a custom home, it's what you used. Romex was what was used in those cheap cookie cutter development homes, modulars and manufactured homes. But eventually builders stopped caring about something the buyers couldn't see and saw how they could put more money in their pockets. Cheaper, less experienced labor, rodent damage, staples overdriven, nails into the cable, ground to neutral shorts- cheaper to pass those problems off onto the EC if and when they happen than spending the money upfront to make sure they won't happen to begin with.

-Hal
NM cable from 60's through 80's had a tougher sheath as a general rule than many the cables made since ~2000. Today's cable you have to be careful pulling across the floor or over top of the bottom chord of a truss rafter during installations, if you rub against some metal object it may tear the sheath much easier than it would have most those older cables.
 
No offense taken. The term "may presume" suggests a degree of prejudice.

Prejudice with merit, if NM is the only wiring method attempted?

Other than the City Of Chicago, which evidently makes the Gambino Crime Family look like Mother Teresa, there are few, if any, places in this country, where NM is not used, and houses are not burning down wholesale due to use of NM cable.

As I said before, if you have data I am not privy to, please share it here.

I personally spend zero seconds of my time worrying about hacks, or trying to make the government give me special privileges through legislation. I don’t need laws passed outlawing everything except for what I’m personally trained to install, in order to stay in business.

There are contractors cheaper than me, and some more expensive than me. I sell customers on me and my company, and I stay busy enough. There are contractors who, in my opinion, are half assed, or at least I would be if I did business that way, and there are contractors whose knowledge makes me feel like I shouldn’t be in business. But worrying about losers and slap happy scammers taking business form me doesn’t cross my mind.

This reminds me of the plumbers who wanted shark bites outlawed because they thought homeowners were going to put them out of business. If they’re that untalented, maybe they should go bag groceries. I don’t need the government to make my work worthwhile.
 
thinking that snapping a snake oil device like an AFCI breaker into a panel makes you Cream of the Crop is pure lunacy in my opinion.
xFCI design violates UL 489 Marking Guide at Topic # 50, 55, 90, and 94.
50. “Test” Function — ..When the test switch is depressed ..this should cause the internal mechanism to function to trip the breaker.

Until our jurisdiction joins other States, to amend out dubious mandates with xFCI test buttons designed to fail while energized, omitting the snake oil compromises insurance coverage, long after you're gone.

In this case the missing snake oil is another correlation, which may presume reckless abandon of remodelers taking the law into their own hands.
 
NM cable from 60's through 80's had a tougher sheath as a general rule than many the cables made since ~2000. Today's cable you have to be careful pulling across the floor or over top of the bottom chord of a truss rafter during installations, if you rub against some metal object it may tear the sheath much easier than it would have most those older cables.

Modern MC and AC cable are also made with pretty thin aluminum 'armor'. You can still get steel armor cable, but pay a premium.
 
My house (that I no longer own ) was wired with BX with the aluminum strip and some without the alum strip like the pictures show above. it was built in 55'

Around here some refer to it as "rat proof romex"

As @infinity posted the rubber insulation can dry out if its hot like in a light fixture box.

Many get bent out of shape about it but from personal experience it will trip a circuit breaker if you get a fault. Do you really think the dinky aluminum strip does much?

The old stuff went away around 1959 when 3 wire grounded outlets came out. I think that was when the change was made.

Furthermore I have looked in old code books and never found any differentiation between the old AC cable with no bonding strip and the newer ac cable with it. As far as I am concerned it was installed with the armor grounded and wired with metal boxes and I can find nowhere that says it is otherwise. Just rumors and what people think.

Do I think it is a good EGC? No it needed to go but it is existing just like K & T

I agree that the "newer NM" the jacket is not nearly as good as the older stuff

From the outside you can't tell the older BX without the strip from the newer stuff with it unless you open a box or try to look through the connector
 
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We have many homes and apartment complexes wired entirely in NM by licensed contractors who have been in business for decades.
Don't General contractor laborer shops run the multi-tenant industry sector?

My State's labor code for electrical apprentices CLC 108.2(b) only applies to licensed electrical contractors.

No multi-tenant developer needs contractor's forced to carry apprenticeship baggage.
Bagage Man.jpg
GC labor shops are pardoned from State apprenticeship programs, and JW certification rules.

Multi-tenant EC's become panel flippers, who specify compatible appliances for new developments with xFCI.

Electrical contractor's who must fix unspecified appliances, lose business without well trained talent, and must bear apprenticeship regulations.
Altas Man.jpg

When general contractor laborers can do electrical, we don't need no stinking apprenticeship.
Jesus EC.jpg
EC's and Certified Electricians need not apply, unless no one else can fix it.
 
Don't General contractor laborer shops run the multi-tenant industry sector?
No.
Most apartment complexes are two story and not more than 32 units except in the few bigger metro areas. It is really easy to travel 50 miles eithout hitting a big box store.
 
... there are few, if any, places in this country, where NM is not used, and houses are not burning down wholesale due to use of NM cable.
It's the cheapest allowable wiring method so, if the NEC says it can be used why would residential builders waste money on a more expensive alternative if they didn't have to? We all agree that the NEC is a minimum requirement for a safe installation. If NM is so good, why then are there so many restrictions on its use? Why can't it be used in all places of occupancy, in all types of multifamily dwellings, above hung ceilings in commercial construction when there is no restriction for such use in one and two family residential hung ceilings? Is the safety of office workers more important than a family's home?

I've installed miles of NM just like most of us, but I've also used a lot of AC and MC. My old house, built in 55' was BX. Some had the strip, some didn't. I did extensive work and re-wiring on that house, and everything I did was AC or MC. The only other cable was some UF that the HVAC installers ran between the split systems indoor/outdoor units. I've seen what can happen to NM from rodents to lightning. And I did have rodents at one time.

My present house is a modular wired with NM apparently by monkeys. After a year I'm still finding and trying to figure out problems. Plugged a little window AC into a receptacle in a bedroom at the opposite end of the house from the panel and the voltage drop at that receptacle is like they left a 250' coil of cable up in the attic someplace. And ahh yes, this is where I had the dining room chandelier, switched with plain old 3-way switches act like it was on a dimmer. Turn the switch on and it ramped up in brightness just like it was on a dimmer all by itself. Did it twice but never again.

NM cable from 60's through 80's had a tougher sheath as a general rule than many the cables made since ~2000. Today's cable you have to be careful pulling across the floor or over top of the bottom chord of a truss rafter during installations, if you rub against some metal object it may tear the sheath much easier than it would have most those older cables.
I agree that the "newer NM" the jacket is not nearly as good as the older stuff


Once again, manufacturers doing as little as they can get away with so they can make more money while convincing the NEC they have a beneficial product we all need to use. Somehow, I'm not real comfortable with that.

-Hal
 
My present house is a modular wired with NM apparently by monkeys

So if you gave the monkeys MC cable and metal boxes it would have come out perfectly?

MC isn’t allowed in health care facilities, fuel stations, and several other places. Does that mean an office workers life is worth less than a nurse or doctor?

That reasoning is faulty. Te problem is with the workers, not the product. And there is nothing wrong with good-better-best. Not everyone can afford a gold plated toilet seat.
 
So if you gave the monkeys MC cable and metal boxes it would have come out perfectly?
I agree. I'll give you another example from this monkey house, an EMT run that goes from the panel around the basement and through the partition into the garage for receptacles on the walls. Whoever did it was probably a mechanic for the EC and knew something about bending conduit but that's where it ends. Nice, neat work unless you know something about it. He used deep handy boxes and at one point he has four runs coming into a box plus the receptacle. I'm afraid to take the cover off. Then he has five 90's plus offsets to go around a corner and window. To top it all off he used blue for the neutrals.

Is it safe? As far as I can see, yes. But give someone like that a hammer, uninsulated staples and Romex and tell him to rope a house and there is no telling what can happen. This isn't like the old days anymore when the labor had years of experience and was paid a decent wage.

-Hal
 
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