Industrial and inspections

D

dm9289

Industrial Maintenance Electrician
Location
Pennsylvania
Occupation
Industrial process repair/ maintenance Electrician
I have worked in manufacturing for about 40 years mainly 3 different places. I lived through many upgrades and never seen any inspection or 3rd party plan review. Is this normal? Are manufacturing facilities with an engineer on staff exempt?
 
Can't speak for every area, but in the times we've done any sort of major work (UPS replacement or building expansion, usually) at our offices, the drawings were all done, reviewed, and stamped by our design/build contractor's engineering consultant, which local inspectors all treated as 'good enough' after what was probably a cursory permit review on their part. The only exception was when we went to our local Caterpillar rep to add generator output breakers, where they drew it up and submitted to the city for thorough review and permitting. I think the inspector's view of it is essentially "The engineer drew 4x250Cu, the customer's there every day so they're gonna see it immediately if you try to cheat by substituting Al or 200, so there's really no need to bother unless we hear about something fishy."
 
ModbusMan said:
Can't speak for every area, but in the times we've done any sort of major work (UPS replacement or building expansion, usually) at our offices, the drawings were all done, reviewed, and stamped by our design/build contractor's engineering consultant, which local inspectors all treated as 'good enough' after what was probably a cursory permit review on their part. The only exception was when we went to our local Caterpillar rep to add generator output breakers, where they drew it up and submitted to the city for thorough review and permitting. I think the inspector's view of it is essentially "The engineer drew 4x250Cu, the customer's there every day so they're gonna see it immediately if you try to cheat by substituting Al or 200, so there's really no need to bother unless we hear about something fishy."
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Thanks for your input. I usually see quality drawings done by engineers but never inspectors.
 
dm9289 said:
Just did not know if in industrial if rules differ with engineering supervision.
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The rules (aka NEC) are the same, but it's likely that inspectors can (more or less) trust the reputation engine to keep everyone in that space honest, while they go after the fly-by-night resi hacks.
 
As I see it, the difference is that in the case of an industrial facility, there is going to be an insurance company very intimately involved in the design and installation of everything in that facility, much more so than would be the case for a residential or commercial facility. The insurance companies will insist on things like Factory Mutual approval, on top of basic UL or CSA listings. That will come with requirements that would be at least the same, if not MORE stringent than the NEC, and more than what a municipal AHJ might be familiar with.

This varies greatly by location though. I got pulled into a fight in Washington State where "large industrials" (read; Boeing) challenged the State on the need for local AHJs to come into their facilities, because it was slowing them down and most of them had no idea what they were looking at anyway. They won, even to the point of saying that they don't need UL listing of control panels (which is where I got involved at the time). But even after they won against the state, their insurance carrier came back and said they still needed an NRTL listing on everything. So they won, then the win became somewhat irrelevant.
 
Jraef said:
insurance company ..involved in ..everything in that facility, much more so than would be the case for a residential or commercial facility.
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Never heard of insurance inspectors on the factory floor. Must be during plan review, new construction, or new processes.

After construction, I expect insurance inspection with casualty claims, when checking for uninsurable hazards?

Starting with 210.19(B)(2), the NEC desires "engineering supervision," not-accessible to untrained persons, and
"where the conditions of maintenance and Supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation.."

The defacto factory operations from whistleblowers describe Kaoss, and fungible procedures, more likely to consider untrained persons with a calculator, as "engineering supervision."
 
ramsy said:
Never heard of insurance inspectors on the factory floor. Must be during plan review, new construction, or new processes.
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At the plant I worked at the insurance company would make safety inspections every year or two, and part of the safety inspection was code compliance. In addition, it was an OSHA VVP Star facility and that triggered OSHA inspections every 3 years.
 
The plant I do a lot of work at, has a bridge crane (soon to add another larger one) and their insurance company wanted a certified crane inspector to sign off on it. They wanted me to get certified to do it, but I have no interest in doing it. As far as I know, it still hasn’t been inspected two years later.
 
hillbilly1 said:
The plant I do a lot of work at, has a bridge crane (soon to add another larger one) and their insurance company wanted a certified crane inspector to sign off on it. They wanted me to get certified to do it, but I have no interest in doing it. As far as I know, it still hasn’t been inspected two years later.
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When I was a plant engineer, crane maintenance and inspections were always done by a firm that specialized in cranes. They were about the only things we didn’t handle internally.
 
dm9289 said:
I have worked in manufacturing for about 40 years mainly 3 different places. I lived through many upgrades and never seen any inspection or 3rd party plan review. Is this normal? Are manufacturing facilities with an engineer on staff exempt?
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No permit. No inspection.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
At the plant I worked at the insurance company would make safety inspections every year or two, and part of the safety inspection was code compliance. In addition, it was an OSHA VVP Star facility and that triggered OSHA inspections every 3 years.
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OSHA VVP is showing 64 member facilities, all in California.

What happened to Illinois, and the rest of the country?
 
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