Powerwall 3 and generator

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Can one get a Powerwall 3 to play nice with a generator?
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I have not dealt with battery inverters in grid tied systems; I have a fundamentals question. I understand how a grid tied PV inverter (a current source) interacts with the grid; it injects current into the system in parallel with the grid. This supplies local loads and the difference (either positive or negative) is made up for by the grid.

A battery inverter is a voltage source, so it supplies current as required by the loads in an off grid scenario, but what happens when it is operating in parallel to the grid? What does it see as the load?
 
I have not dealt with battery inverters in grid tied systems; I have a fundamentals question. I understand how a grid tied PV inverter (a current source) interacts with the grid; it injects current into the system in parallel with the grid. This supplies local loads and the difference (either positive or negative) is made up for by the grid.

A battery inverter is a voltage source, so it supplies current as required by the loads in an off grid scenario, but what happens when it is operating in parallel to the grid? What does it see as the load?
When it (hybrid inverter) is operating in parallel with the grid, it changes mode to grid tied (no longer grid-forming), just like any other GT inverter, and essentially is a current source. That is why it is difficult to work with a generator when the local site is islanded from the grid. A finite set of varying loads, a dumb generator, and a current source that does not have comms with the generator source. If the generator was smart and could vary frequency based on load, to signal curtailment to the inverter, it might work, but dont think any generator has that capability.
 
Can one get a Powerwall 3 to play nice with a generator?
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Powerwalls do not support any direct (parallel or serial) connection with generators. The only supported configuration is via a transfer switch that completely isolates the Powerwall from all generators.
 
Powerwalls do not support any direct (parallel or serial) connection with generators. The only supported configuration is via a transfer switch that completely isolates the Powerwall from all generators.
OK, but what would happen if you were to connect a Powerwall 3 and gateway behind an ATS, as in
Meter > disconnect > ATS > GW3 > PW3 > loads?
 
OK, but what would happen if you were to connect a Powerwall 3 and gateway behind an ATS, as in
Meter > disconnect > ATS > GW3 > PW3 > loads?
Assuming there's an engine generator connected to the ATS as well, then if the grid goes out, the PWs would take over the loads immediately. Then once the generator is up and running, the GW3 would likely eventually decide the grid is back and transfer back to on-grid mode. At which point if the PW3 ever decides to try to net export to the grid, due to either solar in excess of the loads, or TOU programming, it would backfeed the generator and damage it.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Assuming there's an engine generator connected to the ATS as well, then if the grid goes out, the PWs would take over the loads immediately. Then once the generator is up and running, the GW3 would likely eventually decide the grid is back and transfer back to on-grid mode. At which point if the PW3 ever decides to try to net export to the grid, due to either solar in excess of the loads, or TOU programming, it would backfeed the generator and damage it.

Cheers, Wayne
Yeah. Duh. :D
 
Could you use a rectifier and create a DC bus for gen + utility where they are paralleled and inverter after?

So utility to transfer switch, which transfers to generator on loss of utility, then to a rectifier. Common bus in a DC panel with the battery and then to an inverter to feed a AC panel?

That would be a common set up for IT stuff.

But I don't know what the DC bus would need to look like. Maybe +125V, N (or common), -125V?
 
Could you use a rectifier and create a DC bus for gen + utility where they are paralleled and inverter after?
You are basically talking about creating HVDC microgrids. Companies like YouSolar has been doing that for a while. Tesla PW creates its own AC microgrid and does not support any DC power source directly. Some people have hacked generators to run AC-DC power supplies to feed into PV microinverters that in turn feed PWs. It works but not very efficient.
 
I have not dealt with battery inverters in grid tied systems; I have a fundamentals question. I understand how a grid tied PV inverter (a current source) interacts with the grid; it injects current into the system in parallel with the grid. This supplies local loads and the difference (either positive or negative) is made up for by the grid.

A battery inverter is a voltage source, so it supplies current as required by the loads in an off grid scenario, but what happens when it is operating in parallel to the grid? What does it see as the load?
A grid-tied battery is a current source or sink, and the amount and direction of current is determined by some kind of controller. Typically that controller incorporates CT measurements of site consumption to achieve goals like 'self consumption', but sometimes it's also just determined by a schedule. At a fundamental level, it could be determined by anything you like, and is only fundamentally limited by SOC.
 
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