Good evening! I’m just having a bit of a debate at work and was hoping you could help me clear it up. When I have to install my grounding electrodes at residences, I just default to 2 ground rods and then if the house has a ufer I’ll use it or I’ll also use the cold water. And what we are debating is whether you have to run a separate conductor(from main panel) to the ground rods and then another to the water(or ufer). This typically ends with a 6awg from the ground bar to the rods and a 4awg to the water. Or would I be allowed, if I ran #4 from rod to rod and then had my #4 from the water(or ufer), to crimp them together (not in the middle of the rods but at one end or the other of rods, but before they enter the equipment) and then bring only one #4 to my ground bar at my main panel where my main bonding jumper is also located? Thanks in advance!!
Grounding Electrode Question
- Thread starter Jjeter
- Start date
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
So if you ran a #6 GEC from the service to the rod and then a #4 to the CEE that would be a violation because the #6 is too small for the CEE. Also just as a matter of fact if you have a CEE then the rods aren't required.
The conductor to the first electrode is the GEC and must be unbroken or irreversible spliced. The rest of the connections are bonding jumpers and can be connected with standard listed connectors.
The conductor to the first electrode is the GEC and must be unbroken or irreversible spliced. The rest of the connections are bonding jumpers and can be connected with standard listed connectors.
CEE? Are you referring to the ufer? I’m unfamiliar with that acronym. I’m in
Maryland and doing solar so pretty much all the counties require me to have two forms of grounding since it’s a higher lightning risk. So are you saying if I ran #4 to everything like I described then it would be acceptable? Just sometimes can be very difficult doing an 600A service with 3 main disconnects and having to do #6 and #4 to each. I’d prefer to connect them together (using all #4) and bring a single #4 to each. And yes it would be an irreversible connection between everything. Thanks in advance
Also any code references would be very helpful so I can show my colleagues whom I’ve been discussing with
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
You only need an irreversible crimp if you splice the GEC from panel to your first grounding electrode, the rest are bonding jumpers.
Thank you but my question is how many grounding electrode conductors I’m required to bring to my main panel ground bar if I have two or more ground electrode systems. Is one enough if I connect all the systems together with appropriate size wire? Or does it need to be a separate one for each?CEE? Are you referring to the ufer? I’m unfamiliar with that acronym. I’m in
Maryland and doing solar so pretty much all the counties require me to have two forms of grounding since it’s a higher lightning risk. So are you saying if I ran #4 to everything like I described then it would be acceptable? Just sometimes can be very difficult doing an 600A service with 3 main disconnects and having to do #6 and #4 to each. I’d prefer to connect them together (using all #4) and bring a single #4 to each. And yes it would be an irreversible connection between everything. Thanks in advanc
You only need an irreversible crimp if you splice the GEC from panel to your first grounding electrode, the rest are bonding jumpers.
Master Nater
Senior Member
- Location
- Midwest
- Occupation
- Electrical Magician
the CEE he is referring to is a Concrete Encased Electrode. yes, a UFER. and if you have one, you're good. you do not need a rod. ActionDave has the picture out of the handbook, referencing GEC systems.
Ok just forget the ufer and say I have only water pipes and rods- is it still ok?
My counties having jurisdiction will require two forms
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Yes, you do not need to have a CEE if there isn't the qualifying rebar in a footing. Also if the MBJ is a screw or strap the GEC's must land on the neutral bus.
That was my question and I haven’t gotten an exact yes that’s fine answer yet
EngineeredElectric
Member
- Location
- Lockport IL
- Occupation
- Contractor
No he's referring to a CEE, Concrete Encased Electrode.
There's no such thing as a "ufer" in the code book. What you call a "ufer" is actually a Concrete Encased Electrode.
Not a big deal when making small talk between tradesmen, but when you're looking for code answers you should use code language. Slang terms and trade language lead to more confusion when trying to drill down to specifics, not less.
Now to your actual question, it sounds to me like the answer is yes if I'm understanding your description correctly. But your question seems to imply that you don't entirely understand the requirements behind what you are trying to do. You seem to be correct on accident.
The first thing you need to be familiar with is that the grounding electrode conductor generally must be continuous, but can be spliced with specific methods. See 250.64(C).
See 250.66 to find out how large the GEC needs to be. 250.66(A-C) have some very relevant specifics to add to this discussion.
Understanding those sections should give you some good clarity on your debate. Come back with any questions.
Weather you run one continuous GEC from rod to rod to CEE to whatever, or you run a separate GEC from each GE to the ground bus in the panel, or you splice the GEC somehwere in the middle, is usually a question of what is the cleanest and most logical way given the specific installation. All those ways are code compliant when done correctly, but usually one or the other will stick out as the best way given the layout of the system.
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Could you cite a code reference? That is very good info thank you
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Yes you go to the water pipe and then bonding jumper to other electrodes. Take a look at the graphic that Dave posted.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
If I understand your question correctly, one GEC back to the panel is enough.
There is only one grounding electrode system. It is made up of all available electrodes present at the building. If there are no grounding electrodes present you make your own. Driving two ground rods is the easiest way to do that. (You could make your CCE or trench around the whole building and install a ground ring.) All grounding electrodes present are connected by bonding jumpers and one Grounding Electrode Conductor can be brought back to the panel. Sizing rules and ease of routing may make running another GEC from the panel to a GE desirable, but it's not required.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
250.50, 250.52 talks about grounding electrode systems. 250.53(C) talks about bonding jumpers. That takes you to 250.64 where it talks about grounding electrode conductors. The definition for bonding jumper is in Art 100.
I was looking for the reference for the MBJ being a screw/strap then the GEC being with the neutral bar- also thank you all for the help! I was able to find the answer black and white right in the code! I posted a photo with a description to someone else’s posted illustration