Copyright, Paywalls, Building Codes, and Laws

ron said:
NFPA, ICC and UL codes and standards are all already available for viewing for free.
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infinity said:
Many of them are but the problem is that you cannot do anything other than read them if you don't pay.
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Screen copy utilities like "snip and sketch" do allow you to copy content and print or publish but not with the ease you had with earlier CD-ROM or PDF versions of the document. Still no searching ability though.

If I decide to post actual code content on this site is via snip and sketch app and is sort of no different than taking a photo of the content and then posting that photo, can even edit or highlight to some degree.

here is an example:
1775931264574.png
I could have selected just 90.1 part only if I wanted to limit to that. What isn't really possible is to copy specific text and paste it into the editior used for composing messages on the forum but you can copy the image made by snip and sketch and post it. If I did a full screen image you would see all my browser tabs, apps that are open and other items displayed on my screen at the time.
 
I know that I whine alot about this stuff but it just irks me when we're being fleeced. I paid $160-$170 for a 2023 NEC physical book that I cannot copy and paste from without scanning the pages with some software to make a usable copy. So instead I have to sign up for LiNK to copy and paste code sections on this forum. That costs $170 per year or $510 over the three year code cycle just to achieve what the prior PDFs that I purchased and will own forever gave me. People hate subscription models when they feel like they're getting ripped off. I know that there are some members here that use Upcodes maybe that's the answer. Okay rant over. :censored:
 
infinity said:
I know that I whine alot about this stuff but it just irks me when we're being fleeced. I paid $160-$170 for a 2023 NEC physical book that I cannot copy and paste from without scanning the pages with some software to make a usable copy. So instead I have to sign up for LiNK to copy and paste code sections on this forum. That costs $170 per year or $510 over the three year code cycle just to achieve what the prior PDFs that I purchased and will own forever gave me. People hate subscription models when they feel like they're getting ripped off. I know that there are some members here that use Upcodes maybe that's the answer. Okay rant over. :censored:
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Software in general has gone to subscription services over the years. Most of it comes with higher cost than previous versions of similar software before even factoring in how things in general have increased in price in particular over the past 5-6 years. One plus is you usually always have the latest edition where back when you purchased software (usually installed it from a disk) it had limited updates but did essentially work forever (or at least until you got a new computer and it may or may not give you trouble transferring it or may not be compatible with newer operating system at no additional cost in most cases. If you wanted to make an upgrade to the most recent edition then you lay down some money again but unless you upgraded to new edition on annual basis you spent less than you do with the subscription service versions.
 
kwired said:
If you wanted to make an upgrade to the most recent edition then you lay down some money again but unless you upgraded to new edition on annual basis you spent less than you do with the subscription service versions.
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The problem with subscriptions is you're paying in perpetuity while physically owning nothing. You're merely "renting" access to the documents. The day you stop paying is the day you no longer have access.

This seems to be the issue that the courts have been ruling on which is the denial of full free access to the law.
 
infinity said:
The problem with subscriptions is you're paying in perpetuity while physically owning nothing. You're merely "renting" access to the documents. The day you stop paying is the day you no longer have access.

This seems to be the issue that the courts have been ruling on which is the denial of full free access to the law.
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Well said.
Thats also true with CAD programs now,
and accessing the 'web' can be a moving target, the web today is not the same web tomorrow, your new computer may work fine with the web today, but you might endup with a computer that has not enough ram or java or browser, whatever update to load tomorrows version of some cloud 'service'.
We used to buy a computer for a particular static CAD package, it might get a few updates but as long as you have that computer or its hard drive you can open the files made by that CAD package and all the lines and fonts will be correct.
With these 'cloud services' I might wake up one day and my software wont work because my OS is out of date, no longer supported or whatever.
Recently I was running not that told of a browser, and got warnings my browser is not 'supported' anymore when trying to use a clients cloud service.
A PDF codebook will pretty much always load on any computer, I have PDF's from the 1990's that still load on a modern PC.
Thats why I prefer my PDF of each NEC, then its guaranteed I have a copy the document.
I think we have a laptop at work with some ancient version of windows ( dont panic it never connects to the internet ) for a programing stuff like a particular (old) PLC and also a type of data logger, the software can't install on a newer computer.
 
infinity said:
Yup. I would continue to pay for a PDF version of the NEC if they offered it but they don't.
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Yes, I think they have made a mistake that encourages pirate copies by refusing to sell a PDF version. Many people who would pay for a PDF, now turn to other sources where the NFPA does not get one dime from.
 
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don_resqcapt19 said:
Yes, I think they have made a mistake that encourages pirate copies by refusing to sell a PDV version. Many people who would pay for a PDF, now turn to other sources where the NFPA does not get one dime from.
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Exactly. Not every user of the NEC is a pirate or a thief. I've been buying code books for over 40 years including the PDFs when they were available. I know that we've discussed buying the print version of the code book and then paying a few hundred dollars to a company to digitize it which seems silly. There's always a "free" version out there if you're willing to attempt to download it from some shady site on the internet.
 
infinity said:
There's always a "free" version out there if you're willing to attempt to download it from some shady site on the internet.
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There are plenty of places that you can by a scanned copy of the NEC in PDF format. They were made exactly how we made ours....a print copy was scanned and converter to a PDF. There are also a lot of pirate copies that are missing pages or sections.
 
infinity said:
The problem with subscriptions is you're paying in perpetuity while physically owning nothing. You're merely "renting" access to the documents. The day you stop paying is the day you no longer have access.

This seems to be the issue that the courts have been ruling on which is the denial of full free access to the law.
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I'm well aware, about a year ago I refused to subscribe to Quickbooks for another year, they wanted just short of $1000 for another year subscription. They were trying to get desktop users to move to the online version that is their main focus by raising the subscription for the desktop version, which was stupid to begin with IMO, that program could run on it's own depending on whether you used some the online features or not but also won't run period if the subscription is expired.

I don't want my company file in the cloud or need to have access to the cloud to use it. Problem was I had to export as many reports as I thought necessary to Excel files in case I need to access it before the Quickbooks subscription expired, and get my new accounting software set up within about a month before Quickbooks would stop working. Unfortunately my new software is subscription based as well but is about 1/4 the cost that Quickbooks wanted for the next year. I liked QB and used it for 20+ years. New program does pretty much everything QB does, just goes about it in different ways with some things and is taking some getting used to.

The QB data is still mine but that company file is meaningless without their software to read it. Now if I want to look at something from the past I have to figure out what it is from some the Excel files I exported. Worst case I have one file that is an export of "all transactions" but is a lot to go through but should have information from every transaction that was in the original file
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
There are plenty of places that you can by a scanned copy of the NEC in PDF format. They were made exactly how we made ours....a print copy was scanned and converter to a PDF. There are also a lot of pirate copies that are missing pages or sections.
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Attempted that a couple of cycles ago with a fresh copy and a new high speed scanner, it came out with many types of character and word alterations, took lots of proofreading and corrections to make it whole. Paid twice that time. live and learn.
 
MTW said:
Attempted that a couple of cycles ago with a fresh copy and a new high speed scanner, it came out with many types of character and word alterations, took lots of proofreading and corrections to make it whole. Paid twice that time. live and learn.
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When I had it done, there were only a few corrections, but because of the thin paper and the ink on the opposite side, the document looks very gray. If I were to do it again, I think I would start with a spiral bound copy as that paper is thicker.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
When I had it done, there were only a few corrections, but because of the thin paper and the ink on the opposite side, the document looks very gray. If I were to do it again, I think I would start with a spiral bound copy as that paper is thicker.
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That was my plan as well and is the reason I purchased the spiral bound version directly from the NFPA so it would not be one of those paper thin books they sell on Amazon.
 
Why do I feel like I have to take a shower every time we talk about the NEC? Seeing how they operate, screwing us with making us do unnecessary things, then on top of it screwing us with getting what they produce that we need to do our jobs. If they weren't a monopoly and a company like a supplier or subcontractor, I would refuse to do business with them.

-Hal
 
going_commando said:
I figured out this morning that if I had paid for NFPA link to get searchable access to the electronic NEC, I would have paid $1100 to access the book (2020 NEC is the cycle NH is on) I paid $120 for. It's highway robbery.
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At today's pricing one three year code cycle will cost you over $500. :(
 
kwired said:
I'm well aware, about a year ago I refused to subscribe to Quickbooks for another year, they wanted just short of $1000 for another year subscription. They were trying to get desktop users to move to the online version that is their main focus by raising the subscription for the desktop version, which was stupid to begin with IMO, that program could run on it's own depending on whether you used some the online features or not but also won't run period if the subscription is expired.

I don't want my company file in the cloud or need to have access to the cloud to use it. Problem was I had to export as many reports as I thought necessary to Excel files in case I need to access it before the Quickbooks subscription expired, and get my new accounting software set up within about a month before Quickbooks would stop working. Unfortunately my new software is subscription based as well but is about 1/4 the cost that Quickbooks wanted for the next year. I liked QB and used it for 20+ years. New program does pretty much everything QB does, just goes about it in different ways with some things and is taking some getting used to.

The QB data is still mine but that company file is meaningless without their software to read it. Now if I want to look at something from the past I have to figure out what it is from some the Excel files I exported. Worst case I have one file that is an export of "all transactions" but is a lot to go through but should have information from every transaction that was in the original file
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Hoping not to derail the conversation but what software did you choose? What is the subscription for?

Rob G
Seattle
 
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