“You touch it, you own it” philosophy

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sw_ross

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I see periodic comments here about doing work in older homes where, for liability purposes, you have to cover your butt in case an electrical fire happens somewhere down the road.

The comments are usually associated with the idea that if you’re the last person to legally work on the electrical of a structure and an electrical fire happens you’ll be the one held accountable.

From a business perspective that bothers me because there’s no possible way that you could look at every electrical component of a house to minimize risk when you’re only hired to install a ceiling fan. You can’t re-wire the whole house for a small task just to eliminate the risk that you’ll be held accountable somewhere down the road for a loose connection that you had nothing to do with and didn’t know existed.

There has to be someway that you can do work in a structure and not be held liable for in the future, like a fire or something that you didn’t even touch. If not, then it’s not worth doing work in a house that you didn’t totally wire from start to finish.
 
I don't think you are on the hook for everything in the house if all you did was install a ceiling fan. Don't mean someone won't try to blame you, but they likely will not win any judgement in such situations if whatever happened is proven to not be related in any way to your ceiling fan installation.
 
sw_ross said:
you’re only hired to install a ceiling fan.

There has to be someway that you can do work in a structure and not be held liable for in the future, like a fire or something that you didn’t even touch.
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This is just my opinion. I think the best way to protect yourself is to keep records of what you do. If you install a ceiling fan in a master bedroom and have a record of that being the work performed it's going to be hard for anyone to say you are responsible for a fire that starts in the basement.

If you installed that fan on a plastic box and it falls and hits someone in the head and kills them that record keeping idea may not work out to well.
 
zbang said:
That's it- There's nothing, ever, to keep a customer screaming that "You messed this up!" when, say, the dishwasher stops working after you installed some lights in the garage.

"I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was going to blame you."
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Which, if it's serious enough, means that there is nothing to stop some attorney from dragging you into court which is going to cost you for your own defense as well as lost time, etc.

-Hal
 
What also is a worse problem is the hacks out there doing electrical work coming in after you, "because you charge too much", and messing it up and damages happen, and because you did it right to code, inspected, permitted, you are the last of record to work on it and are left holding bag.
 
Only holding the bag until you show the invoice and permit for garage lights and it was the bedroom fan that fell. But as Hal says, there's nothing to stop someone from finding a bad attorney to threaten suit and nothing to stop them from doing so.

There are a lot of examples of this recently, but that gets into politics; draw your own conclusions.
 
It's not only liability in the courts.

Lots of people think you're obligated to come fix everything in the house that stops working after you have been there - no matter whether you worked in the area or not.

You hung a TV, now their attic fan stopped working and it must be related to what you did.

You came and changed the receptacles and switches in a bedroom they're remodeling, now the lights in the detached garage aren't working and it has to be your fault somehow
 
James L said:
You hung a TV, now their attic fan stopped working and it must be related to what you did.
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I hate to play Devil's Advocate here but it is possible for a TV and an attic fan to be on the same circuit.

I was troubleshooting a problem where the receptacles were out in an upstairs bedroom and some guys had just installed a new garage door opener. Guess where the problem was located. It was the junction box for the garage door opener receptacle.
 
ptonsparky said:
I was working an industrial plant when partial power went down. The Plant Manager saw me and pointedly asked what did I do. Not in a friendly manner either. He wanted to blame someone. A primary fuse blew IIRC.
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"Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: 'after this, therefore because of this') is an informal fallacy that states: "Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X." It is often shortened simply to post hoc fallacy."

I guess the countermove is:
You're the Plant Manager.
You must know something.
Give me a list of all other possible causes for this.

If he refuses:
Write down that I asked you for this, and you refused.
 
ptonsparky said:
I was working an industrial plant when partial power went down. The Plant Manager saw me and pointedly asked what did I do. Not in a friendly manner either. He wanted to blame someone. A primary fuse blew IIRC.
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I seem to get that a lot though usually not very serious. Power goes down while I am at a place, it almost always is "what did you do"?

One time I was working on rooftop AC units power goes out, I didn't even know about it, but the carpenters working inside come up " we just wanted to make sure you were alright". turns out whole town happened to go down in that incident and was nothing related to what I was doing.
 
I've never worried about legal liability for some failure just because I was the last electrician there. I do worry about the client's perception that I caused a problem because this results in bad reputation. And the last thing I want to do is stay longer at a job to troubleshoot something unrelated that failed. Therefore I am very careful when opening up a box full of conductors to not disturb them anymore than necessary. If I have to take apart some joints, I label the wires so I can be certain to put them back the way they were. The unfortunate reality is every moronic or incompetent thing that was done in the past is a booby trap waiting to catch you.

Case in point: Recently I installed a circuit for a new air conditioner. The A/C contractor was there at the same time installing the system which included cutting through the basement wall to run lines. The lights and receptacles in the basement stop working. Of course the client assumes it's our fault. I consult with the A/C manager: "If this is your fault, I'll charge you for the repair. If this is my fault, I'll eat it. But if this is unrelated, do I charge the client or you? Charge the client they say." After a bunch of troubleshooting I find the problem: the wire in the basement breaker is very loose. I'm sure I disconnected it just from pushing wires around, but really, not my fault. A competent electrician would have tightened the lug.

I inform the client of the unrelated nature of the fault and the added charge. Of course she pitches a fit and complains to the A/C manager who then says they will pay for it. I certainly wasn't going to eat it especially when I stayed 90 minutes longer than I wanted.
 
sw_ross said:
I see periodic comments here about doing work in older homes where, for liability purposes, you have to cover your butt in case an electrical fire happens somewhere down the road.

The comments are usually associated with the idea that if you’re the last person to legally work on the electrical of a structure and an electrical fire happens you’ll be the one held accountable.

From a business perspective that bothers me because there’s no possible way that you could look at every electrical component of a house to minimize risk when you’re only hired to install a ceiling fan. You can’t re-wire the whole house for a small task just to eliminate the risk that you’ll be held accountable somewhere down the road for a loose connection that you had nothing to do with and didn’t know existed.

There has to be someway that you can do work in a structure and not be held liable for in the future, like a fire or something that you didn’t even touch. If not, then it’s not worth doing work in a house that you didn’t totally wire from start to finish.
Click to expand...

I think this is mostly just a thing people say with little basis in real life. I have never met an electrician who only does new construction and complete rewires due to liability concerns. Presumably you are insured and if you are a corporation that gives you liability protection as well. Find something else to worry about is my advice.
 
sw_ross said:
I see periodic comments here about doing work in older homes where, for liability purposes, you have to cover your butt in case an electrical fire happens somewhere down the road.

The comments are usually associated with the idea that if you’re the last person to legally work on the electrical of a structure and an electrical fire happens you’ll be the one held accountable.
Click to expand...

That’s definitely what the property owners insurance would like to do, and that’s why your insurance company has attorneys and forensic engineers on call. Been there done that. Keep good records of what you touched and when you touched it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You are not responsible for someone else's bad work or for some existing bad work as long as you didn't touch the bad work. Once you touch it you may have some responsibility. The problem is that when something goes wrong the lawyers sue everyone that had anything to do with the situation that might possibly have some responsibility. If they didn't they would be committing legal malpractice. It's up to the courts to decide who's responsible for what. This is why you buy liability insurance. That way the insurance companies can settle it amongst themselves and pay the legal bills without you having to get involved in it.
 
kwired said:
I seem to get that a lot though usually not very serious. Power goes down while I am at a place, it almost always is "what did you do"?

One time I was working on rooftop AC units power goes out, I didn't even know about it, but the carpenters working inside come up " we just wanted to make sure you were alright". turns out whole town happened to go down in that incident and was nothing related to what I was doing.
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Funny you should mention that...
I have done that doing relay testing.


115 kV relay testing.. knocked the whole area out (3 substations):oops:

Took a few years to live that one down..
Couldn't deny when asked “what did you do!”
 
Hv&Lv said:
Funny you should mention that...
I have done that doing relay testing.


115 kV relay testing.. knocked the whole area out (3 substations):oops:

Took a few years to live that one down..
Couldn't deny when asked “what did you do!”
Click to expand...


So it was you!






(joking) 😛😛
 
Most people are reasonable and will not sue you for something that is obviously not your work. But god help you if you end up doing work for someone crazy and litigious, or if you did some work where something went wrong but there isn't a slam dunk explanation that it wasn't your work at fault.
 
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