If you are in San Francisco here is the link to the electrical requirements.
http://www.amlegal.com/library/ca/sanfrancisco.shtml
http://www.amlegal.com/library/ca/sanfrancisco.shtml
1/0 gec exists but connection not vis. Redo split bolt question
- Thread starter wyreman
- Start date
- Status
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
If you are installing this bond at the water heater to bond hot and cold I must ask where in 250.104 it allows a metal water pipe to be bonded to another metal water pipe.
250.104(A)(1) allows the metal water pipe to be bonded to four places and I can?t find a water pipe listed. Could you show me where?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
If the water heater does not require a branch circuit (like a standing pilot type water heater) then the gas pipe doesn't even require any bond. Other gas appliances may end up bonding it anyway. The gas pipe only needs bonded with the equipment grounding conductor of the branch circuit that may be likely to energize the piping.
There may be local rules that are different, and then there is CSST.
Bonding rules for CSST are driven by product testing and listing and not by the NEC. Most have similar rules but is rules that are covered in installation instructions for a particular product and not a code that is general to all CSST products.
Updates
Inspector says no PVC allowed for grounding wire.
She would rather see stranded wire bigger than #4
Run loose if strapped with listed strap.
On her insp report she wanted the cold water bond
which I uncovered at the entrance
And the gas bonding. I asked her if the gas bond had
To be the same 1/0 as the gec and she said no, much smaller
So now I only have to run a #3 for the gas bond
It is 50'. To the main and only 8' to the water entrance
Can I split bolt or clamshell the #3 to the 1/0
Or do I have to run to the disconnect?
Also the disconnect is all one piece with the meter base
Can I just land anywhere in the enclosure?
And finally, the ground rod is not anywhere visible
Should I just drive one and land 1/0 even though
She didn't write it up? This install was just green tagged
By the city in 2006 and she thinks it must have been
Good then, but that the wires "may have been removed"
Client thinks there's a certain corruption or
Good old boy because they paid for and got signed off on
A garage fire sprinkler system which was never installed
Thx
Inspector says no PVC allowed for grounding wire.
She would rather see stranded wire bigger than #4
Run loose if strapped with listed strap.
On her insp report she wanted the cold water bond
which I uncovered at the entrance
And the gas bonding. I asked her if the gas bond had
To be the same 1/0 as the gec and she said no, much smaller
So now I only have to run a #3 for the gas bond
It is 50'. To the main and only 8' to the water entrance
Can I split bolt or clamshell the #3 to the 1/0
Or do I have to run to the disconnect?
Also the disconnect is all one piece with the meter base
Can I just land anywhere in the enclosure?
And finally, the ground rod is not anywhere visible
Should I just drive one and land 1/0 even though
She didn't write it up? This install was just green tagged
By the city in 2006 and she thinks it must have been
Good then, but that the wires "may have been removed"
Client thinks there's a certain corruption or
Good old boy because they paid for and got signed off on
A garage fire sprinkler system which was never installed
Thx
Water heater bond is just loose wire across three pipes
Typically #4 solid on resi to 3 clamshells only
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
Did she give you the local admendment # to the NEC? Because the NEC allows it, if they are allowing EMT, then they are considering the location not subject to physical damage.
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
You would have to use irreversible connectors such as crimps or Exothermic welding, splitbolts or clam shells do not qualify. All you need to the ground rod is a #6, unless local codes require larger.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I would be asking for code references to a lot of what was mentioned here. If no local amendments your inspector needs to go back to code classes.
No PVC allowed for GEC? Unless an application where PVC is not permitted at all (like maybe a place of assembly) that one is bogus. Most of us would prefer stranded wire bigger than #4 but it is not prohibited for GEC. Listed strap for GEC? Really? Gas piping only needs bonded by the EGC of the circuit that may be likely to energize the piping. That could easily be 14 AWG conductor because a 15 amp circuit was run to a furnace and is the only circuit likely to energize the gas piping, even though your GEC is 1/0.
Gregg Harris
Senior Member
- Location
- Virginia
- Occupation
- Electrical,HVAC, Technical Trainer
If the water heater is installed with dielectric unions, then a jumper must be installed to make the piping system "an effective grounding path"
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Be advised, you enter this debate with Mike at your own risk, he has made his view pretty clear on this forum more than once of what is a metal piping system and what needs bonded more than once - I can't really disagree with most of what he has said.
Gregg Harris
Senior Member
- Location
- Virginia
- Occupation
- Electrical,HVAC, Technical Trainer
Be advised, you enter this debate with Mike at your own risk, he has made his view pretty clear on this forum more than once of what is a metal piping system and what needs bonded more than once - I can't really disagree with most of what he has said.
Nothing ventured nothing gained. If we all had the same thought pattern and knowledge base we would be programed robots. I learn something new each time I visit this site.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
The section of the NEC you have quoted above has nothing to do with 250.104(A)(1) but instead it concerns the first five feet where we are allowed to land the GEC to the underground electrode and also use this same GEC to do the bonding to the interior metal pipe as required in 250.104(A)(1). The section you have posted is the 250.104(A)(1) bond back to the electrode.
If the water heater is installed using non-metallic pipes the requirement found in 250.104(A)(1) does not change in any way.
If you believe that the use of non-metallic fittings or stubs at a water heater in some way causes a separate bonding for the other water pipe then this other water pipe must be bonded as outlined in 250.104(A)(1) and I can?t find where this other metal water pipe is allowed to be installed from one pipe to another.
Gregg Harris
Senior Member
- Location
- Virginia
- Occupation
- Electrical,HVAC, Technical Trainer
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded (1) to the service equipment enclosure, (2) the grounded conductor at the service, (3) the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or (4) to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).
No matter what one would think it meant there are only four places any metal water pipe can be bonded and I don?t see to another water pipe listed. (1), (2), (3), and (4) was added by me to making counting those places easier.
Here is what the Code Making Panel had to say in 2008;
5-235 Log #1834 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
(250.104(A)(1))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Mark T. Rochon, Mark J. Rochon Master Electrician
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
General Combination metal water piping system(s) separated by nonmetallic water piping system(s) where may become energized installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used.
Substantiation: Nonmetallic water piping systems are being inserted between our metal water piping system and today?s code is not recognizing these changes.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The conditions indicated in the substantiation are already covered by 250.104(B) where there is not a complete metallic water piping system.
Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15
Gregg Harris
Senior Member
- Location
- Virginia
- Occupation
- Electrical,HVAC, Technical Trainer
Mike you keep repeating yourself. The conection points for termination are correct.
What is being bonded and terminated at these 4 locations?
What is being bonded and terminated at these 4 locations?
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
No I am not repeating myself. You said that, ?If the water heater is installed with dielectric unions, then a jumper must be installed to make the piping system "an effective grounding path" and then quoted the code section concerning bonding the 250.104(A)(1) to the 250.52(A)(1) electrode, ?(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.?
I say that any bonding done to metal water pipes must be done from the pipe to one of the four locations outlined in 250.104(A)(1) and bonding across a water heater is not mentioned as one of these four places.
The code making panel says that if the metal water piping system is not a 100% metal water piping system then we bond using 250.104(B) in their panel statement outlined in the proposal posted above.
So should a water heater be installed using dielectric fittings then it is not a complete 100% metal water piping system and the pipes would be bonded by 250.104(B) using any equipment grounding conductor in the circuit likely to energize the pipe.
The section you quoted concerning the grounding path not relying on removable equipment such as water meters or filtering devices could be accomplished by installing the 250.52(A)(1) to the underground water pipe outside the building and then making the 250.104(A)(1) bond at any accessible point anywhere on the metal water pipe on the inside the building and not putting any bond at the meter or filter.
Some people want to argue that the cold water and hot water constitutes two separate water piping systems which mandates one install a bonding jumper at the water heater. Even if this is true the two piping systems would have to adhere to the verbiage found in 250.104(A)(1) and each of the two systems would have to be bonded back to one of the four places outlined in 250.104(A)(1) not from one pipe to the other.
I read on this site as well as other sites about the bonding required by CSST gas piping and some will bond this gas pipe back to some point on a metal water piping system. When I read the instructions that comes with some of these CSST gas pipes I don?t see an allowance to bond to a water pipe but instead I see that this gas pipe must be bonded back to the service, one of the grounding electrodes or to a grounding electrode conductor.
Way back when I first started in the electrical trade there was a requirement for the electrical contractor to make and keep all metal pipes electrically continuous, see this insert from the 1975 cycle;
This bonding across a water heater is a holdover from the old farts that lived back in those days and is no longer anything that can be found in the NEC today. There is no verbiage to be found that a bonding jumper is required across a water heater in today?s code.
The verbiage found in 250.104(A)(1) is very clear that the bond from any point on any metal water pipe is to land at one of four places and from one pipe to another pipe is not found.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Gregg Harris
Senior Member
- Location
- Virginia
- Occupation
- Electrical,HVAC, Technical Trainer
Perhaps one of the moderators would make this its own thread starting with post # 22, this could take a while.
The interior water piping system is what is being bonded, and is being terminated at one of the 4 mentioned locations with a bonding jumper.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Exactly and the following statement is not part of anything that can be found in the NEC anywhere. The following is nothing more than a wives tale
- Status