10' Tap Rule

[milwaukeesteve]

Re: 10' Tap Rule

Could you elaborate a little, please? IMO it is not a device. I tried to show why. I just want to see your reasons.
If you could convince me, then I could see your point of view in relation to this whole post.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: 10' Tap Rule

Steve,
You have your opinion and I have mine. The panel controls the flow of current that makes it a device.
Don

 

[iwire]

Re: 10' Tap Rule

Originally posted by milwaukeesteve:
I haven't heard a panel described as a device before. Yes, it 'carries electricty but doesn't utilize electricity'(Art. 100). However, a panel is a distribution means and a controlling means (overcurrent/short circuit protection). I never heard of it described as a 'device'.

Do you consider a wall switch a device?

It also controls electricity and it is a device.

I agree that we do not normally call a panel a device however IMO it clearly is a device per the NEC definition.

Now what is a GFCI / AFCI breaker?

They carry, control & utilize electricity.

 

[jim dungar]

Re: 10' Tap Rule

The 2005 definition of device uses the phrase "intended to" which means the incidental use of electricity (i.e. GFI or even a lighted wall switch) does not change it's primary function of "carry or control".

So in the broad sense if current simply flows through it, it is a device. But doesn't this mean that cables and conductors are also devices? How about in-line splices?

 

[iwire]

Re: 10' Tap Rule

Originally posted by jim dungar:
The 2005 definition of device uses the phrase "intended to" which means the incidental use of electricity (i.e. GFI or even a lighted wall switch) does not change it's primary function of "carry or control".

Thanks, that makes good sense.

Originally posted by jim dungar:
But doesn't this mean that cables and conductors are also devices?

Funny that same thought crossed my mind while posting to this thread earlier.

Never thought of them that way before today.

[ April 29, 2005, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[milwaukeesteve]

Re: 10' Tap Rule

I tried to say that I know that switches and outlets and smoke detectors and gfi's all are devices, and that they do control, regulate and even protect.
At a panel we distribute the loads into many different paths. We don't do that with a switch or an outlet.
I could understand if you want to call a breaker a device, just not the whole panel.

 

[iwire]

Re: 10' Tap Rule

Steve, we must go by what is written in the NEC, not what we have always thought or believed.

Where in the NEC does it state if item distributes power it is not a device?

Personally I would call a panel with it's buss bars, terminals and breakers an assembly of many separate devices.

 

[milwaukeesteve]

Re: 10' Tap Rule

I feel you may be right, that we do have to go by what is written. Yes it does not state any thing about not distribution in the definition, but it also does not not state it either, if that made any sense.

 

[peter d]

Re: 10' Tap Rule

Originally posted by iwire:
I would have to say conductors are also devices.

Never thought of them that way before today.

I was wondering the same thing in this thread but no one responded. Now I see some concensus on the issue, but it's hard to see a cable as a device, despite what the definition says. :roll:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: 10' Tap Rule

Steve,
I'll put a molded case switch in the panel and terminate the tap conductors on that device. We still have the same installation as far as protection of the tap conductors.
Don

 

[john m. caloggero]

Re: 10' Tap Rule

There are two sets of rules that you must comply with, similar to transformers and secondary conductors. 2005 NEC, Section 240.21(B)(1)and 408.36(A). In this installation, the conductors supplied by the 400A panel and its overcurrent device ( I assume it to be 400A), and the 225A panelboard being supplied (I assume it is a lighting and appliance panelboard). The 10ft tap rule can be used,however, it must terminate in a DEVICE or OCD that is rated not greater than the ampacity of the tap conductors. A panelboard is a device, however, if it is a lighting and appliance panelboard, an OCD must be installed either in the 225A panelboard or ahead of the conductors supplying the panelboard. It looks like you can't circumvent the OCP required for the 225 amp panelboard.