100 amp GFCI protection

KyleFowler

Member
Location
Maryville, TN
Occupation
Electrician
I am doing work at a marina, specifically we are raising up an existing 200 amp single phase 240v electrical panel on the shore that gets flooded when TVA raises the water level on the TN River in the spring. We met with the AHJ to put together a plan and the big snag that came up was he said the floating office/store/gas station that is fed with a 2 pole 100 amp breaker must be GFCI protected. It currently is not because it was built in 1993 but since we are messing with it now the protection is required.

Apparently they don't make a 2 pole 100 amp 240v GFCI breaker. I asked AHJ what to do and he said he didn't know, this was a first for him as well.

I did some research on this forum before posting and only saw the big money LifeGuard Series GFCI's as a solution. Is there a cheaper way? Is there a GFCI monitoring setup that could trip a 100 amp shunt trip breaker? I'm just spitballing here lol. My last ditch idea is to do a load calculation and see if its possible to just use a 2 pole 60 amp.

Thanks in advance!
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
The code does not require 5mA GFCI protection for that feeder circuit. It requires 100mA GFP protection for the circuit. See 555.53 in the 2020 code. Do they have a legally adopted amendment that requires the GFCI protection for this feeder?

The 100mA GFP requirement is a new requirement for the 2020 code. In the previous codes, floating buildings were in Article 553, but there was no GFP requirement for the floating building feeder.
In the 2020, 553 was merged into Part III of Article 555 with revisions.
 

KyleFowler

Member
Location
Maryville, TN
Occupation
Electrician
They have adopted the most recent code I believe. If they haven't they are using the 2017 code. So that is something I need to ask about, thanks!

I used GFCI incorrectly haha. Anyways what is the right product? I apparently cant seem to Google the right thing.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Electrician
Found it quicker than I expected. This isn't the whole amendment but shows the part about feeders to a marina.

Any main overcurrent protective device installed or replaced on or after April 1, 2015, that feeds a
marina shall have ground-fault protection and meet all requirements in Article 555.3 in the edition
of the National Electrical Code adopted in Tenn. Comp. R. & Regs. 0780-02-01 -.02.
 

KyleFowler

Member
Location
Maryville, TN
Occupation
Electrician
Thanks for info, I've sent off a request for a quote on a MarinaGaurd with the specifications needed, we will see what the price is. If it's in the thousands however I'm betting on the customer opting for trying out the 2 pole 60 amp gfi breaker
 

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Electrical Monke
There are GFI and GFP units that utilize CT’s and a contactor.

I had to price some back in 2018 when the 2017 NEC took effect for some commercial kitchen stuff and manufacturer didn’t offer a 60/3 GFI. I don’t remember the exact cost but it was +/- $30k for 9 of these units. Engineers wrote a letter specifying we could drop the branch breakers to 50A.


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KyleFowler

Member
Location
Maryville, TN
Occupation
Electrician
brantmacga, your thread is where I saw about the LifeGuard ground fault monitoring. If the MarinaGaurd is 3,000+ bucks however I don't think that is cost effective, At that point I could rip out the 100 amp feeders, replace them with two 60 amp feeders, install a second panel and move circuits over.
 

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Electrical Monke
brantmacga, your thread is where I saw about the LifeGuard ground fault monitoring. If the MarinaGaurd is 3,000+ bucks however I don't think that is cost effective, At that point I could rip out the 100 amp feeders, replace them with two 60 amp feeders, install a second panel and move circuits over.
If I was talking about Life Guard, it wasn’t the same job. The unit I’m thinking of was installed inside a N1 enclosure; it had CT’s you route the circuit through and it either had a contactor or a shunt coil, I can’t remember exactly. Maybe you could order it either way. I can dig through emails and see if I find it.


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brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Electrical Monke
brantmacga, your thread is where I saw about the LifeGuard ground fault monitoring. If the MarinaGaurd is 3,000+ bucks however I don't think that is cost effective, At that point I could rip out the 100 amp feeders, replace them with two 60 amp feeders, install a second panel and move circuits over.
Dang I’m sorry I did quote a lifeguard, I just found the emails. I quoted two different brands and lifeguard was apparently one of the them. I was thinking about the portable plug in units for life guard.

Anyway, they quoted me $2500 a piece for those 60/3 units, and that was through Bender.


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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thanks for info, I've sent off a request for a quote on a MarinaGaurd with the specifications needed, we will see what the price is. If it's in the thousands however I'm betting on the customer opting for trying out the 2 pole 60 amp gfi breaker
Keep in mind a GFCI will trip at only 4-6 mA of leakage vs the allowed 100 mA of GFP. GFCI's on individual branches may not trip but when the entire feeder is protected by one device you can have a lot more potential capacitive leakage seen by the feeder device than seen on any individual branch circuit. I'm sure this is a reason why GFPE is allowed here instead of GFCI.

Also keep in mind not all 60A GFCI breakers have load side neutral connection and therefore can not supply line to neutral loads
 

KyleFowler

Member
Location
Maryville, TN
Occupation
Electrician
those are great points, I plan on trying a Seimens QE260 which is a 30ma ground fault trip breaker and has a load neutral lug. From the best of my knowledge that's the least sensitive commonly available option I could find. I don't think Seimens or anybody makes an off the shelf 100mA snap in breaker.

That is if the MarinaGaurd is too expensive, I haven't heard from them yet.

 

KyleFowler

Member
Location
Maryville, TN
Occupation
Electrician
Finally heard back from Bender today about the MarinaGaurd, they want $2,307 before tax and shipping. That doesn't include the shunt trip breaker of course.

Called my Sq D representative who has dealt with my situation in the past and he said the Sq D solution was an I-Line sized molded case circuit breaker with a GFI add on in an enclosure. His price was 2,500 dollars. I was amazed Sq D could be cheaper at something haha.

As a side note, the Sq D rep lamented that he felt like electrical manufacturers are lagging behind on reasonable GFI solutions especially with breakers over 60 amps (over 50 amps in Sq D's case) and I agree. For example, it seems to me like they could make a snap in or bolt in breaker in the 70-100 amp range that took up 4 spaces instead of 2 (single phase applications) if they had to and nobody would complain about it as long as it didn't cost 2,500 dollars lol.
 

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Electrical Monke
As a side note, the Sq D rep lamented that he felt like electrical manufacturers are lagging behind on reasonable GFI solutions especially with breakers over 60 amps (over 50 amps in Sq D's case) and I agree. For example, it seems to me like they could make a snap in or bolt in breaker in the 70-100 amp range that took up 4 spaces instead of 2 (single phase applications) if they had to and nobody would complain about it as long as it didn't cost 2,500 dollars lol.
No kidding. Did you know Eaton DOESN'T EVEN OFFER A 3-POLE GFCI in the BAB line? Not in any size. Completely wipes them out from competing on any of my restaurant projects. It's also made my restaurant remodel work a nightmare, as there are a lot of these restaurants I work on that primary used Westinghouse PRL1 (now Eaton) panelboards during the late 80's and 90's. So we have to install new Square D sub-panels just to get the equipment we relocate GFI'd to meet new code.

Back to your marina; I didn't even think about using a molded case unit breaker like that. Eaton has them, and I'd bet ABB does also. In the Eaton catalog look for "earth leakage circuit breakers"; its adjustable to .03 ma.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Finally heard back from Bender today about the MarinaGaurd, they want $2,307 before tax and shipping. That doesn't include the shunt trip breaker of course.

Called my Sq D representative who has dealt with my situation in the past and he said the Sq D solution was an I-Line sized molded case circuit breaker with a GFI add on in an enclosure. His price was 2,500 dollars. I was amazed Sq D could be cheaper at something haha.

As a side note, the Sq D rep lamented that he felt like electrical manufacturers are lagging behind on reasonable GFI solutions especially with breakers over 60 amps (over 50 amps in Sq D's case) and I agree. For example, it seems to me like they could make a snap in or bolt in breaker in the 70-100 amp range that took up 4 spaces instead of 2 (single phase applications) if they had to and nobody would complain about it as long as it didn't cost 2,500 dollars lol.
Yet it is likely the manufacturers that lobbied to get the additional GFCI requirements into NEC the last couple cycles - particularly expansion on two and three pole GFCI requirements. (Note these are the same big players in the AFCI game)
 

MTW

Senior Member
Location
SE Michigan
Just had a similar experience with Siemens. Was looking for a 3P 208V 20A 30ma GFPE in a BL 240V frame, since that is the panel the customer has. Needed for a chemical batch mixer. Nothing available in 3P for the 240V BL frame. Had to step up to the ED4 480V 125A frame, with the ground fault kit and a small 3R panelboard. And still needed a standard breaker for the BL panelboard. Was quoted at 2610, available locally.

Since I Only needed it for the one circuit, I found something different that would suit my needs and reduce the cost. A North Shore PGFS-85456
has selectable 6, 10, 30ma range and availiable 30, 50, 60A relays, 2P or 3P 208, 240,4 80V with 5K AIC. Enough rating for this project and came in at half the cost. They have marina products as well, biggest drawback I see is the 5K AIC relay rating. Getting ready to try one on this job.
 

MTW

Senior Member
Location
SE Michigan
I got distracted and time ran out on the above message.

@KyleFowler & @brantmacga

I spoke with sales and engineering at North Shore Safety about some of the applications discussed here, and if they could provide UL listed units to interface with shunt trip breakers to meet the various needs some of us encounter in the field, such as the 100mA marina service and restaurant applications. I forwarded the link to Mike the sales rep, to get them informed on what the field needs are. I ordered a 208/120 30mA unit of theirs for use on a chemical batch mixer. Suggested that they sign up to participate in the discussion, they seemed interested in the application needs.
 
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