Does anyone still sell 100 amp service upgrades, I do very few and usually it would be for a trailer, very small house, etc. Typically, if an upgrade is required I would install a 150 amp service minimum. Of course we all know about load calcs and such but I'm asking how many guys are still installing 100 amp services as an upgrade. For the cost difference and potential future considerations, it just doesn't seem wise to me.
100 AMP SERVICES
- Thread starter BruceH
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jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
I just installed a dual 100A upgrade on a duplex this week. Each unit of the duplex is one bedroom, and I really couldn't justify going above 100A per unit, seeing as how they were doing just fine with 60A service in one and 30A service in the other. The electric dryer was connected to the 60A service, and there are no other major electrical loads in the building.
Generally speaking, though, I don't install 100A upgrades. The smallest I generally put in is 150A, and even then I'll use 2" conduit and a 200A meter socket to make it easy to heavy up to 200A in the future if they need to.
I just installed a dual 100A upgrade on a duplex this week. Each unit of the duplex is one bedroom, and I really couldn't justify going above 100A per unit, seeing as how they were doing just fine with 60A service in one and 30A service in the other. The electric dryer was connected to the 60A service, and there are no other major electrical loads in the building.
Generally speaking, though, I don't install 100A upgrades. The smallest I generally put in is 150A, and even then I'll use 2" conduit and a 200A meter socket to make it easy to heavy up to 200A in the future if they need to.
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
Often times the only benefit that I can think of to upgrade to a 150-200a service is the advantage that is gained with the additional circuits that are available.
Unless there is a lot of heating load are often are 100a services maxed out? The biggest problem that I have is simply running out of room when adding circuits. Then its adding a 125a subpanel, removing (2) branch breaker form the service entrance replacing it with a 60a feeder fo the subpanel, relocating the circuits displaced and adding the additional circuits.
With all of the extra space that is available with the 150-200a panels they can be kept within the same box. Because of the extra space available a circuit which you may have had to feed with one breaker could be split up into two just because you have the space. Less chance of overloading a circuit.
Is 150a-200a needed? Probably not but the additional circuit space is nice.
Often times the only benefit that I can think of to upgrade to a 150-200a service is the advantage that is gained with the additional circuits that are available.
Unless there is a lot of heating load are often are 100a services maxed out? The biggest problem that I have is simply running out of room when adding circuits. Then its adding a 125a subpanel, removing (2) branch breaker form the service entrance replacing it with a 60a feeder fo the subpanel, relocating the circuits displaced and adding the additional circuits.
With all of the extra space that is available with the 150-200a panels they can be kept within the same box. Because of the extra space available a circuit which you may have had to feed with one breaker could be split up into two just because you have the space. Less chance of overloading a circuit.
Is 150a-200a needed? Probably not but the additional circuit space is nice.
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
CH makes a 30 space 100Amp panel.
Sq D makes a 32 space 100Amp panel.
Existing houses--upgrade to 100Amp UNLESS additional load is being added--hot tub, pole barn, etc.
Typically I find a 60Amp service with a range, elect dryer, and an A/C, plus the rest of the house-lights and recepts. Houses are small, around 1000-1250 sqft.
On the 60Amp services, I ask if the 60Amp fuses ever "blew out." 95% say no or I don't know. Naturally a load calc is in order before upgrading, but I wanted to show you that a 60Amp is quite capable of handling a small house.
CH makes a 30 space 100Amp panel.
Sq D makes a 32 space 100Amp panel.
Existing houses--upgrade to 100Amp UNLESS additional load is being added--hot tub, pole barn, etc.
Typically I find a 60Amp service with a range, elect dryer, and an A/C, plus the rest of the house-lights and recepts. Houses are small, around 1000-1250 sqft.
On the 60Amp services, I ask if the 60Amp fuses ever "blew out." 95% say no or I don't know. Naturally a load calc is in order before upgrading, but I wanted to show you that a 60Amp is quite capable of handling a small house.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
I like to show off my knowledge and do a load calculation on every service old and new.
The business side of me charges like the dickens for anything that is above the calculated load.
Why would I want to give away future work for free? I don?t, I give what is needed and charge for more.
Giving away future work makes for a better electrician? Not in my opinion. I just shows how stupid and lazy the modern electrician has become.
It is not my job to say that I am giving you a 200 amp service so you can add on later; it is my job to give them just what they need. Any thing more that I give away so I can look better is what has made the trade in residential what it is today.
I like to show off my knowledge and do a load calculation on every service old and new.
The business side of me charges like the dickens for anything that is above the calculated load.
Why would I want to give away future work for free? I don?t, I give what is needed and charge for more.
Giving away future work makes for a better electrician? Not in my opinion. I just shows how stupid and lazy the modern electrician has become.
It is not my job to say that I am giving you a 200 amp service so you can add on later; it is my job to give them just what they need. Any thing more that I give away so I can look better is what has made the trade in residential what it is today.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
[ November 05, 2005, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
There's a shocker
[ November 05, 2005, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
Originally posted by electricmanscott:
There's a shocker
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
I'm with you Scott. A house around here that's 2000 or 3000 square feet will be fine with a 200 amp service. Besides giving the customer capacity for the future our profit margin is much higher on the 200 amp. Around here a 200 amp upgrade is double in price of a 100 amp, yet the amount of labor is the same and the material costs aren't much higher either.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
Mike try it this way. How about if you do 100 service upgrades (new construction is not what this thread is about). Now if you do 200 amp instead of 100 and they pay you an extra 600 bucks thats an extra $60,000 to your bottom line. This is not giving anything away for free. It is getting paid for it now. I'll take that approach against hoping in the future I might be able to up sell something and make the money then.
Part two of the equation is when they need additional wiring in the future. You come in and say you have to replace the service or add a sub panel. You look like a complete idiot since you just replaced the service a year before and now it's obsolete.
As infinity said pricing a 200 amp service is around double what a 200 amp sells for. Cost is not.
Mike try it this way. How about if you do 100 service upgrades (new construction is not what this thread is about). Now if you do 200 amp instead of 100 and they pay you an extra 600 bucks thats an extra $60,000 to your bottom line. This is not giving anything away for free. It is getting paid for it now. I'll take that approach against hoping in the future I might be able to up sell something and make the money then.
Part two of the equation is when they need additional wiring in the future. You come in and say you have to replace the service or add a sub panel. You look like a complete idiot since you just replaced the service a year before and now it's obsolete.
As infinity said pricing a 200 amp service is around double what a 200 amp sells for. Cost is not.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
I didn't say it shouldn't be used. I just wouldn't waste my time using it.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
Mike that is a pretty lame argument.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
By your math it seems like you price the job higher and then install a a cheaper product thereby pocketing that $100.00.
If you do the service and it costs $100.00 less it is the customer that should be paying you $100.00 less.
Charging the full price and not giving the full job is pretty shady.
Who are you saving $100.00 per house?
By your math it seems like you price the job higher and then install a a cheaper product thereby pocketing that $100.00.If you do the service and it costs $100.00 less it is the customer that should be paying you $100.00 less.
Charging the full price and not giving the full job is pretty shady.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
I'd just as soon always install higher-rated gear now.
That said, I hate 4/0 SER. 150 amps is a nice size for a little tract home. Iss juzz aright.
Absolutely right. On a similar note, there's few things worse than someone complaining about having no spaces left in their panel in a brand new house. That's happened to me before, and I learned from it.
I'd just as soon always install higher-rated gear now.
That said, I hate 4/0 SER. 150 amps is a nice size for a little tract home. Iss juzz aright.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
It is all in the way that you look at it.
I went to the dentist with a tooth ace and he said, ?I get $65 per tooth to pull.?
Being that I was in pain I said that $65 was a bargain go ahead and pull it.
?Well Mike,? he began speaking, ?if I pull them all right now then you will never have a tooth ace again.?
The electrician that says just stick up a 200 amp service, charge the customer, and keep running is the same as the dentist above.
Where is our trade headed? The electrician is a dying trade with the world being filled with installers.
Some of the jurisdictions in my area require a calculation before they issue a permit. It should be like that the world over.
I do a calculation on every service new and old. I keep a copy and give the customer a copy of the calculation on upgrades. Should they ask for a 200 then I gladly oblige them and my bank account. I go home knowing that I didn?t just rob the customer of $600 just because I wanted to make more money and that their knowledge of the job was only what I had told them.
Iwire
You have said several times that you work for someone and do not own the company. This tells me that for the most part you install from a print of some kind. Some where down the line before you get the blue print someone had to use the formula, RPM = 120 X frequency/number of poles as well as HP = F X D / 550 X Time for that motor that you are installing.
How many services do you install where you tell the customer that the print says that you need a 400 amp but an 800 amp would be better?
It is all in the way that you look at it.
I went to the dentist with a tooth ace and he said, ?I get $65 per tooth to pull.?
Being that I was in pain I said that $65 was a bargain go ahead and pull it.
?Well Mike,? he began speaking, ?if I pull them all right now then you will never have a tooth ace again.?
The electrician that says just stick up a 200 amp service, charge the customer, and keep running is the same as the dentist above.
Where is our trade headed? The electrician is a dying trade with the world being filled with installers.
Some of the jurisdictions in my area require a calculation before they issue a permit. It should be like that the world over.
I do a calculation on every service new and old. I keep a copy and give the customer a copy of the calculation on upgrades. Should they ask for a 200 then I gladly oblige them and my bank account. I go home knowing that I didn?t just rob the customer of $600 just because I wanted to make more money and that their knowledge of the job was only what I had told them.
Iwire
You have said several times that you work for someone and do not own the company. This tells me that for the most part you install from a print of some kind. Some where down the line before you get the blue print someone had to use the formula, RPM = 120 X frequency/number of poles as well as HP = F X D / 550 X Time for that motor that you are installing.
How many services do you install where you tell the customer that the print says that you need a 400 amp but an 800 amp would be better?
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
I have a hard time even getting a calculated demand load over 60-70 amps for an in town dwelling with all fossil fuel ranges, water heaters, and furnaces. 100 amp suits just fine in those types of dwellings now and, I suspect, well into the future.
I have a hard time even getting a calculated demand load over 60-70 amps for an in town dwelling with all fossil fuel ranges, water heaters, and furnaces. 100 amp suits just fine in those types of dwellings now and, I suspect, well into the future.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
I never have to calculate a service, I do install temp services and we do not really calculate those either, but at no time will we install a service less than 200 amps and we pay for these services.
We also do design build and if a customer needs a panel I do not calculate it, I put in a 225 amp three phase feeder to a 225 amp panel.
As labor the is virtully the same and it is a large percentage of the bill moving up from a 100 amp to a 225 amp is not a big deal.
, but lets be real here, the price difference between a 400 and an 800 will be 3 or 4 times.
The price difference between a 150 and 200 amp service is minimal.
IMO if you charge a customer for a just enough 150 amp service when for a small percentage more they could have a 200 amp service I think you have done them a dis-service.
Of course the choice should be the customers, no mine.
Yes, I try to make clear that I am just a small cog of a big machine and you are correct most of my work comes from engineered prints.
I never have to calculate a service, I do install temp services and we do not really calculate those either, but at no time will we install a service less than 200 amps and we pay for these services.
We also do design build and if a customer needs a panel I do not calculate it, I put in a 225 amp three phase feeder to a 225 amp panel.
As labor the is virtully the same and it is a large percentage of the bill moving up from a 100 amp to a 225 amp is not a big deal.
NoneOriginally posted by jwelectric:
How many services do you install where you tell the customer that the print says that you need a 400 amp but an 800 amp would be better?
, but lets be real here, the price difference between a 400 and an 800 will be 3 or 4 times.The price difference between a 150 and 200 amp service is minimal.
IMO if you charge a customer for a just enough 150 amp service when for a small percentage more they could have a 200 amp service I think you have done them a dis-service.
Of course the choice should be the customers, no mine.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
If we're talking about a house that already has a finished basement, A/C, and sits squarely on it's lot borders, and operates at 89 amps, then no, I wouldn't recommend they buy a 200 amp service. There are no more teeth to go bad, in this case. There is little likelihood that they are going to ever use more power.
If we're talking about a house on rural acreage, with a chance that they'll build outbuildings, finish their basement, install pole lights, etc, I would push very hard to install a 200 amp service with open breakers at that outside location. They have a fairly high potential of expansion. For your analogy, there are several questionable teeth in that grin. [/quote]That's a whole different ballgame, and you know it, Mike.
That is a wildly off-kilter analogy. If the dentist peered in your mouth and took an educated assessment that within the next few months, two more were going to start causing you pain and could be pulled now to save you another trip to his office, I would take his advice into consideration.
If we're talking about a house that already has a finished basement, A/C, and sits squarely on it's lot borders, and operates at 89 amps, then no, I wouldn't recommend they buy a 200 amp service. There are no more teeth to go bad, in this case. There is little likelihood that they are going to ever use more power.
If we're talking about a house on rural acreage, with a chance that they'll build outbuildings, finish their basement, install pole lights, etc, I would push very hard to install a 200 amp service with open breakers at that outside location. They have a fairly high potential of expansion. For your analogy, there are several questionable teeth in that grin.
[/quote]That's a whole different ballgame, and you know it, Mike.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
How many of these (I never do a calculation) electricians would sell this homeowner on a 200 amp service? Why? The bottom line comes down to only two reasons. One; they don?t know how to do a calculation or two; they are just plain robbing the home owner.
Let me state one more time that I do a calculation on every service and present the numbers to the home owner for their decision. I am a professional and in such it is my DUTY to present to the homeowner all their options.
To quote a phrase from a man that I admire as well as look up to. A man that I tell each and every one of my students to follow when reading these threads as he has much to offer.
He once said and I quote
You also implied that there was a calculation made as to what the load was on this service and the homeowner was aware of the numbers.
What I am addressing are those people who just install a 200 amp service with out giving the homeowner the choice between what is needed and what the electrician is trying to sell. Present the facts (the calculated load) and let them choose weather or not they will be adding something down the road.
This next statement is MY OPINION and just that. I believe that if I did not give the homeowner the facts and back them up with the calculated numbers and just install a 200 amp service I just robbed that homeowner. I just violated a trust endowed by the fact that I hold a license.
[ November 06, 2005, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
Just as you stated the choice should be the customers.
Here is an example of just what I am talking about.
How many of these (I never do a calculation) electricians would sell this homeowner on a 200 amp service? Why? The bottom line comes down to only two reasons. One; they don?t know how to do a calculation or two; they are just plain robbing the home owner.
Let me state one more time that I do a calculation on every service and present the numbers to the home owner for their decision. I am a professional and in such it is my DUTY to present to the homeowner all their options.
To quote a phrase from a man that I admire as well as look up to. A man that I tell each and every one of my students to follow when reading these threads as he has much to offer.
He once said and I quote
As you stated in your post the homeowner was given a choice, ?They were willing to pay more for that insurance?
You also implied that there was a calculation made as to what the load was on this service and the homeowner was aware of the numbers.
What I am addressing are those people who just install a 200 amp service with out giving the homeowner the choice between what is needed and what the electrician is trying to sell. Present the facts (the calculated load) and let them choose weather or not they will be adding something down the road.
This next statement is MY OPINION and just that. I believe that if I did not give the homeowner the facts and back them up with the calculated numbers and just install a 200 amp service I just robbed that homeowner. I just violated a trust endowed by the fact that I hold a license.
[ November 06, 2005, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
Think about the electrician that wired a house in the 1920s.He sold them that 30 amp or 60 amp service saying thats all you need.We have all seen the outcome from that.Predicting the load for 50 years from now is not possable because we have no idea what's coming.Our demands have kept growing.In 1920 they never heard of TV,computer,microwave,hot tubs,pools,etc.Only time i ever suggested less than 200 amps was if it was not a back to back service.Your doing the customer a favor if the differance between 150 and 200 is $50 in wire.Given the option very few will say i just want the min.Last time i was buying a panel with MB the cost was the same or maybe $20 cheaper.I will never have to look a customer in the face and say "we should have put in a 200".Now if this is a 1 bedroom 1 bath apartment then sure 100 amps will likely be fine.But give them the option of a bit more.If a load could really be that easy to figure then the poco would not need meters. This is not about can you figure the load for today.
Think about the electrician that wired a house in the 1920s.He sold them that 30 amp or 60 amp service saying thats all you need.We have all seen the outcome from that.Predicting the load for 50 years from now is not possable because we have no idea what's coming.Our demands have kept growing.In 1920 they never heard of TV,computer,microwave,hot tubs,pools,etc.Only time i ever suggested less than 200 amps was if it was not a back to back service.Your doing the customer a favor if the differance between 150 and 200 is $50 in wire.Given the option very few will say i just want the min.Last time i was buying a panel with MB the cost was the same or maybe $20 cheaper.I will never have to look a customer in the face and say "we should have put in a 200".Now if this is a 1 bedroom 1 bath apartment then sure 100 amps will likely be fine.But give them the option of a bit more.If a load could really be that easy to figure then the poco would not need meters.
This is not about can you figure the load for today.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES
Mike as has been stated the most common reason to install a 200 amp service is for the 40 circuit panel that accompanies it.
Few houses in my area need 200 amps of capacity. We heat with gas or oil mostly and AC loads are not that great.
But I guess you just have time to kill doing calculations while the rest of us go by experience.
Mike as has been stated the most common reason to install a 200 amp service is for the 40 circuit panel that accompanies it.
Few houses in my area need 200 amps of capacity. We heat with gas or oil mostly and AC loads are not that great.
But I guess you just have time to kill doing calculations while the rest of us go by experience.
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