100 AMP SERVICES

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Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

And just how much time was wasted doing that load calculation.How much did you charge for that time ? Sounds like a fair trade off in $$$$$.Customer pays for the calc instead of amps :confused:
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Think about the electrician that wired a house in the 1920s.He sold them that 30 amp or 60 amp service saying thats all you need.We have all seen the outcome from that.Predicting the load for 50 years from now is not possable because we have no idea what's coming.Our demands have kept growing.
While this is certainly true, what do you suppose will be the condition of the service equipment in 50 years? ... or even 30 years? It's well established that this equipment doesn't get better with time. If a dwelling in which I install a 100 amp service today needs more capacity in 40 years, their existing equipment may well be condemned on the basis of age and condition in addition to the lack of capacity.

In 50 years, people might be scrambling to get rid of breakers in favor of fiber optic overcurrent fandangles or infrared something or others. Who knows what the future will hold? I don't want to be the guy installing today's equivalent of a large FPE panel, thinking I'm doing someone a favour for the future in the event they add some large loads.

That said, on upgrades where 100 amp will suit fine, I normally also quote that 200 amp will be X amount more. I leave that up to them. It's not my decision to make. I have no special psychic abilities, and I don't spend other people's money.
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

Originally posted by iwire:
But I guess you just have time to kill doing calculations while the rest of us go by experience. :D
I don't know that it takes all that much time. I can plug in the numbers in the laptop and have a load calc in about a minute for a dwelling, along with the optional calc method. I'm trying to get the appropriate amount of software on the laptop so that I can give on the spot estimates for most things when I go to look at the work. It frees up SO MUCH time for me.
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

Originally posted by mdshunk:
I don't know that it takes all that much time.
I can say it takes more time then me saying 200. :D

I have not been doing service changes for some time but I remember that most times the customer came to us and said they wanted a 200 amp service.

Who am I to argue with them? :p
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

Originally posted by iwire:
I have not been doing service changes for some time but I remember that most times the customer came to us and said they wanted a 200 amp service.

Who am I to argue with them? :D

I do see your point, and it's valid. If a person who really could get to work in a Chevy Impala comes onto a car lot to buy a Cadillac Escalade, the salesman will oblige. If a person wants a seperate 200 amp service to their residential detached garage, where one person will be occasionally working on hobby projects, I will install it.
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

Lets try it this way.You are on a trip and there will be no more gas staions opened for the next 200 miles.You have exactly 10 gallons of gas and your car gets 20 mile to gallon.Your in fine shape as long as no detours come along.Had you filled your tank you would have had an extra 5 gallon.
That 100 amps does fine too,untill they want a hot tub and pool.Or perhaps the new owner wants electric dryer and range ,not gas.The sale is almost complete till they find out they have min. service.Or it just lacks space in panel.All of this over how much ?Was it worth it.When i was doing new homes it was automatic that you get 200 amp 40 full spaces.This number will work for just about any normal 3 bed 2 bath home.Often before we get finished roughing in a house we get them EXTRAS handed to us.It might be a hot tub,pool,shed or barn,motor home plug in,welder.Isn't it nice to have the amps and extra circuits.I have friends that have a 200 amp service for what was to only to be a double wide mobile.They have large parties every sat night of up to 100 people.What started out to be a small cheeky hut has turned into a 1,000 footer with small kitchen,DJ booth,sound system,2 nd laundry,hot tub,pool and 5 small cottages for guest and 2 work sheds.Had someone only installed the min here they would have had major problems.The sub panel for cheeky and cottages is 100 amps and it is maxed out for spaces.I wish now that i had gave them a 30 or 40 space sub panel.Hind site is 20 20.
If your after having only the lowest price then go for the 100 as for some of us others we can walk away feeling we gave them more than they asked for and have a happy customer.
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

If you think a load calculation presented to homeowner means anything more than a bunch of numbers that is your perogative. In my experience 200 amps is the way to go for most average homes that I work in. It is NOT twice the $$$ as 100 amps. You get panel space and power capacity for future upgrades. Win Win situation.
It is shortsighted to do a load calc and say this is what you have right now so this is all you need. We all know what happens. Circuits are added, attics or basements are finished, electric heat is added etc. That is part of the reason people do service upgrades in the first place.
If you are doing upgrades everytime the homeowner adds electrical usage YOU are robbing the customer.
I am out! I will sit back now and watch this thread go to 7 pages. :D
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

We (you and me) can try to justify the installation of a 200 amp panel when it is not needed as hard as we want to try but the bottom line is the same.

To install something that cost one dollar more with out the permission of the homeowner is nothing more than stealing.
To use the ever famous statement that 200 amp is better, it gives space to expand, you can add something later, ect? is nothing more than cheating someone that has put their trust in you.

We all know that we are not going to spend our money and give it away. We charge for everything that we install. We use all of the excuses that have been posted to justify this overcharging to ease our own conscience not that we have given a lot of something that will never be used.

I have a program in my laptop that all I need to do is plug in the numbers and the load is there in less than five minutes. These programs can be found on this site and is free to use. So if you don?t know how to do a calculation there is still no excuse.

calculator

I only looked at one panel in my inventory sheet and it was a 100 amp Square ?D? 32 circuit panel. QC132M100C. This panel is great for a change out where only 100 amps are needed.

The last service change that I did other than the one I am working on now was to install a 125 amp panel and remove a four fuse panel that had rusted out. The widow lady is very happy and I made a profit. Now I could have installed a 200 amp service and sold her on the idea that she could add a hot tub, pool, outbuilding or any thing else she wanted but the fact that she was in her eighties and lived in a house built in the fifties on an acre of land my heart just wouldn?t let me cheat her like that.

Justify it all you want the bottom line is to install a bigger service selling the customer that it is any better than what is calculated is wrong. I am an electrician not a fortune teller. I install according to the calculated load instead of predicting what the home owner might do 10 years down the road.
:)

[ November 06, 2005, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

In my little neck of the woods the poco doesn't charge the customer anything if they upgrade an overhead to 200 amps but do charge if they only go to 100 amps. (They always send a bill for underground jobs). So therefor I have a selling point to the customer. When informed of this, they jump right on it and are so happy, I do not even have to explain that they are going to have to pay me 6-8 hundred dollars more for the 200 than they would have if I put up a 100 amp.
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I install according to the calculated load instead of predicting what the home owner might do 10 years down the road.
:)
True enough. I do an average of 2 service upgrades each week, as my business is primarily service work. The majority of these are for REA's, people selling their home, and landlords. They each want the minimum legally required. I know many of you turn down this sort of work, but I do not, and make the same profit percentage as any other work. If I specced 200 amp each time, that would sorely limit the amount of work that I get from these sources.

The arguement for 200 amp as a minimum does have merit for new construction, I believe. I can't recall installing a 100 amp service in new construction for a very long time, unless it was engineered as so.
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

Originally posted by jwelectric:
We (you and me) can try to justify the installation of a 200 amp panel when it is not needed as hard as we want to try but the bottom line is the same.

To install something that cost one dollar more with out the permission of the homeowner is nothing more than stealing.
:p
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

Originally posted by jwelectric:
To install something that cost one dollar more with out the permission of the homeowner is nothing more than stealing.
Holy cow. How would you do so without 'permission'? If you agreed to install a 100 service, and instead installed a 200 and billed for the difference, hoping no one would notice, then I reckon that guy would get what he's got coming.

To use the ever famous statement that 200 amp is better, it gives space to expand, you can add something later, ect? is nothing more than cheating someone that has put their trust in you.
I recommend anyone with a desire to read check out the book Freakonomics by Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner. It's an interesting read and I am going to borrow from something I've learned from this book, here.

What we have in this predicament is what economists call an "information assymetry". We have specialized knowledge that the customer does not have, so at the beginning of a conversation the EC has the customer at a disadvantage, right off the bat.

Mike asserts that to try to persuade a customer to go beyond code minimums is an abuse of that assymetry of information that we enjoy.

I am an electrician not a fortune teller. I install according to the calculated load instead of predicting what the home owner might do 10 years down the road.
But working in this profession for any length of time, you become more knowledgeable in the ways of the world. You meet an 80 year old widow, you know she's not going to expand her home. The next owner's might, but she surely won't.

You meet a young successful couple where the wife is pregnant, the man speaks wistfully of finishing the basement and perhaps building a large outbuilding later to house his 4 ATV's, bass boat, and woodworking hobby, it's reasonable to assume that these people's needs are going to change.

Is it unscrupulous to suggest that "Although a 200 amp service costs $400 more than a 100 amp service, I believe that with the improvements that you seem open to performing and with your growing family, you will probably appreciate the added space and ampacity in years to come."

I think it's unscrupulous to simply perform a calculation according to the minimum standards set forth by the NEC. How much use will they get out of their 100 amp service down the road? How long did their 60 amp service last? 50 years? Will 100 be enough for 50 years? In many cases yes.

We see enough houses, we can venture some pretty educated guesses as to the future in regards to an electrical system.

Try this one on: I would be more likely to upsell a rich person than a poor one. Is it because I'm a callous carpetbagger who preys on people who have "too much money" or "they won't miss it"?

Or is it because on average wealthy people tend to have more resources to make changes and upgrade their homes?
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

As I have said before I do a calculation of the service and present this to the homeowner. Should the homeowner decide that he wants a larger service I will install this service for him and be happy when I spend his money.

What I am addressing is the person who just installs a 200 amp on a service upgrade without giving the homeowner the benefit of the facts. Or the person who starts stating that you ?might? need 200 amps years down the road. If they needs200 amps years down the road then I will give it to them then.

I see in the field as well as read in these forums where 200 amps is where it all begins and ends. This is far from the truth.
I don?t see it as my responsibility to provide a new home or service upgrade with the ability to change out from gas to electric. This should have been considered before beginning the job. For me to provide them with this ability is just taking work away from a later date.

I am working on a service upgrade that is to be inspected in the morning. The electrical contractor that had the job sold the homeowner on a 200 amp service and has installed everything. After the third turndown I was called to straighten the service out.

This is on a house that was built in 1935 and it has oil heat with a ton and a half AC unit. It has a dryer, range and a water heater with 1100 square feet of heated space.
I could have installed a 125 amp service for less than half of what they paid the original electrical contractor. Now they are paying me about as much as the 125 amp service would have cost to take down the EMT riser and 2/0 aluminum conductors that was installed and replace the riser. I see me going to court with these people and trying to get some money back from the original electrical contractor. When asked I will have no choice but to show the calculated load for this house.

The original contractor sold this 200 amp to this poor family on the pretense that they needed a 200 amp service. His statement was that anything any smaller would not pass.
When it is all said and done they are going to have about $3200 in something that they will NEVER use. It is just going to set on the side of the house and look pretty. They will get to look at it every time they leave and come back home and enjoy the art work that went into this installation.

This kind of mentality needs addressing by the licensing board.
:)
 
Re: 100 AMP SERVICES

service upgrades here have a 150 amp minimum city code power co only has 200 amp meter cans inspecter wants 225 amp busses in panels

[ November 15, 2005, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: jethro ]
 
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