1200A Panels - Inadequate Ground Question?

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tmillard

Member
Thanks for everyones responses...

If you disregard the issue with the wire size (500's vs 600's), you still have the issue with the lack of equipment grounding conductors. And since it is impossible to add the 3/0 EGC in each conduit without removing the existing 500's, there are really no other options.

In my opinion, it's a liability issue. Someone raised a flag that the grounding did not appear adequate, we investigated and determined it was not code compliant and then we provided a fix to make it code compliant.
 

Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
In my opinion, it's a liability issue. Someone raised a flag that the grounding did not appear adequate, we investigated and determined it was not code compliant and then we provided a fix to make it code compliant.

You mean "not code compliant to the NEC 2008) - right?

However, you still have not checked to see if this installation was safe and compliant in 1970 when it went in. But, I'm thinking that doesn't matter, "we ... determined it was not code compliant."

You may well be right and the feeders have to be changed - they may not have been code compliant when they went in. or not - you don't know.

I'm also thinking that even if the install was safe and compliant in 1970, that also would not matter, "In my opinion, it's a liability issue."

So, none of the comments really mattered, the course of action was decided when you wroted the OP. Okay that is fine, it was an interesting discussion on methods one might use.

However, I have two questions that are perhaps closer to the heart of the matter:

When the code changes tomorrow, are you going to rip these feeders out again and re-pull agian?

Are you going to under take a search and destroy mission on the entire electrical system - eradicating all that does not meet current code?

Seriously - What is your plan?

cf
 

tmillard

Member
Cold Fusion...

>>So, none of the comments really mattered,

>>Are you going to under take a search and destroy mission on the entire electrical system - eradicating all that does not meet current code?

No, that is not true at all. I value all of the input on this forum. I was hoping that I missed something so that the owner would not have the huge expense of pulling the old feeders out and replacing them with new.

In regards to the code, the earliest code I could find in our office was from 1987. Saying that, I reviewed all the NEC's from '87, '90, '93, '96, '99, '02, '05 and '08. I called every senior designer and engineer I knew and nobody had a copy from either '75 or '78. I even looked on Ebay to find a copy with no luck.

None of the responses to my post said that the single 3/0 was acceptable in 1975 or 1978.

So in saying that, what would you do?
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
I tend to agree with Bob's (petersonra's) comments in post 18. Money spent on this 'repair' is money that won't be spend on other repairs. Even if the management decision is made to do this particular repair, I would suggest that you list all of the 'hazards' found in the plant electrical system, rank them in order of most dangerous to least dangerous, and start spending the money on the most dangerous ones first.

IMHO your current install does not meet code (and thus is a liability issue), but is also not particularly dangerous. Also, the current install is nearly 40 years old, and you might want to replace it as part of a PM cycle...but on a reasoned out schedule rather than 'OMH hazard replace it yesterday!!!'

The only part of the grounding that is inadequate is _in the conduits_. A large enough EGC has been run to the equipment at the end of the conduit, and that EGC roughly parallels the path of the supply conductors. As wawireguy mentions in post 15, if _all_ of the phase conductors were in a single large conduit, then the single 3/0 EGC would be sufficient (of course derating would kill the phase conductor ampacity, but...) Since the installation was run in PVC, there will be only small issues with 'magnetic loop area' caused by the spacing between EGC and conductors (though it might pay to check for rebar loops around the individual conduit).

Now it is true that having 3 parallel 3/0 EGCs would be a better EGC than the single 3/0, and furthermore the smaller loop area would mean lower EGC impedance, but I bet that if you actually measure the EGC impedance you will find that it is more than up to the task of proper fault clearing.

_Inside_ the conduit the lack of an EGC means that the only fault clearance path is to another phase or to neutral. Sit down and evaluate what a fault inside the conduit will do. IMHO the lack of the EGC doesn't change the risks much in either direction. If something causes a cable to cable fault inside the conduit, I don't think that the EGC would have a big chance of preventing a phase-phase or phase-neutral fault. It is possible that the fault could hit the EGC first and cause the breakers to trip, but IMHO it is just as likely at anything that causes the fault would just damage a couple of conductors, and likely exclude the EGC entirely.

Finally there is the issue of conductor ampacity. What is the ambient temperature of the duct bank? Is it possible that the actual ampacity of the conductors, as adjusted for temperature, totals 1200A? Could you get the ampacity of the conductors evaluated under 310.15(C) engineering supervision? As others have asked, what is the actual load? Can you change OCPD to a lower value rather than increasing the conductor size to match the current OCPD? Could you add junction boxes and splice in short lengths of 600kcmil conductors, using 90C rated splices (assuming that the conductors in the conduit had 90C ratings.)

I would strongly consider the approach suggested by dana1028; if you can make 3x500kcmil conductors meet your ampacity requirements, then you could use one of the 500kcmil conductors already in the conduit as the EGC, and make all your changes in the conduit currently housing the EGC.

Good Luck! Let us know what transpires!
Jon
 
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