14/2 For Travelers?

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My initial question was based on the installation creating an EMF situation. Upon further review, you only need to worry about that when installing conductors in conduit. You can induce a current in the conduit. For that reason, you cannot install two travelers by themselves in conduit.

Thanks for your input.
 
IllinoisContractor said:
Upon further review, you only need to worry about that when installing conductors in conduit.
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I would not put it that way, any metal including boxes, etc.

Also that EMF is still there it is just not heating anything
 
IllinoisContractor said:
Wouldn't you want to use the most cost efficient installation?
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I would think to get a neutral to the second box a 3 wire cable would be better, less wire for box fill and only one cable to lock into a box.
 
iwire said:
You can do it with one 14/2 between switch boxes.

Think knob and tube wiring, you will not find 3 conductors run between 3 way switches.
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Oh, I'm well aware of that. I'm very familiar with houses both originally and retrofitted with K&T.

The job I did this most on was a house where the utility room, the kitchen, the dining room, and the hallway were more or less in a line, all with 3-ways at both doors of each space.

The switches were either back-to-back or shared 2-gang boxes, so I would have needed hot and neutral almost everywhere anyway. This way, I took the leg from which ever 3-way was easier.
 
1793 said:
I would think to get a neutral to the second box a 3 wire cable would be better, less wire for box fill and only one cable to lock into a box.
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There are cases where either 3-wire or 4-wire (or 2 x 2-wire) are better. I have seen cases where someone runs a 14-2 to bring in only a hot or a neutral to a box. That always weirded me out. I consider it poor planning.
 
LarryFine said:
Oh, I'm well aware of that. I'm very familiar with houses both originally and retrofitted with K&T.
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What the ____? How old does a house have to be that it was retro-fitted with K&T? Sounds like Massachusetts.
 
1793 said:
How do you get a Hot and Neutral of the same circuit at both ends of a three way and use a 2 wire for travelers? :confused:
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Easy. In multi-gang boxes, with both single pole and 3-way switches at each end of a room. Since both boxes require a hot and a neutral to handle the single pole switched loads, installing a 2-wire traveler between them for each 3-way setup makes economic sense.

But, as I previously stated, I prefer to use a piece of 4-wire, killing 2 stones with one bird :grin:
 
kbsparky said:
Easy. In multi-gang boxes, with both single pole and 3-way switches at each end of a room. Since both boxes require a hot and a neutral to handle the single pole switched loads, installing a 2-wire traveler between them for each 3-way setup makes economic sense.
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This will, of course, create unwanted EMF's
 
jaylectricity said:
What the ____? How old does a house have to be that it was retro-fitted with K&T? Sounds like Massachusetts.
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Pre-Civil War, for example. I'm in Richmond, VA, Capitol of the Confederacy. There are plenty of houses where, not only was the wiring added after construction, gas piping for lighting fixtures was added even earlier, but after construction.

Remember Patrick Henry's famous "give me liberty or give me death" speech? That happened at St. John's Church right here in historic Church Hill, Richmond. There are plenty of the kind of houses I'm describing there. Balloon framing, to boot.

I remember reading old books on wiring when I was a kid (physically, I mean) that described wiring of existing homes, from how to lift floorboards and remove baseboards, to boring holes with brace-and-bit and fishing wiring vertically between floors.

I can still picture the drawings in my mind about, for example, running a wire or cable from an upstairs attic to a downstairs baseboard-mounted old-work box. I've been doing this for over 35 (gasp!) years now, in Richmond. I've done it all.
 
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Dennis Alwon said:
This will, of course, create unwanted EMF's
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So tell me how much difference this will make VS using a 3-wire cable and carrying the redundant neutral conductor?

Keep in mind that all the white neutral wires are usually twisted together at both ends of the run, allowing for a parallel path to be utilized in the circuit.

Also be sure to provide accurate calculations for limited load circuits, once the owners install a bunch of CF lamps in their fixtures. For any appreciable amount of EMF to occur, you have to have a significant load present. :wink:
 
kbsparky said:
So tell me how much difference this will make VS using a 3-wire cable and carrying the redundant neutral conductor?
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Moderator Karl Riley can tell you and it can be very detectable with a Gauss meter.

Keep in mind that all the white neutral wires are usually twisted together at both ends of the run, allowing for a parallel path to be utilized in the circuit.
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They should not be, that is an NEC violation.
 
kbsparky said:
So tell me how much difference this will make VS using a 3-wire cable and carrying the redundant neutral conductor?

Keep in mind that all the white neutral wires are usually twisted together at both ends of the run, allowing for a parallel path to be utilized in the circuit.

Also be sure to provide accurate calculations for limited load circuits, once the owners install a bunch of CF lamps in their fixtures. For any appreciable amount of EMF to occur, you have to have a significant load present. :wink:
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All I can say is that there was a significant difference in emf's when I added 4 recessed cans in a house. Read this thread I started back in December 2006
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=82602
 
iwire said:
...They should not be, that is an NEC violation.
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While I don't disagree with you here, this is the situation that I encounter most of the time when troubleshooting circuits in houses wired by others.

One of the main reasons why I prefer to use 4-wire cable in such situations.:wink:
 
LarryFine said:
Pre-Civil War, for example. I'm in Richmond, VA, Capitol of the Confederacy. There are plenty of houses where, not only was the wiring added after construction, gas piping for lighting fixtures was added even earlier, but after construction.

Remember Patrick Henry's famous "give me liberty or give me death" speech? That happened at St. John's Church right here in historic Church Hill, Richmond. There are plenty of the kind of houses I'm describing there. Balloon framing, to boot.

I remember reading old books on wiring when I was a kid (physically, I mean) that described wiring of existing homes, from how to lift floorboards and remove baseboards, to boring holes with brace-and-bit and fishing wiring vertically between floors.

I can still picture the drawings in my mind about, for example, running a wire or cable from an upstairs attic to a downstairs baseboard-mounted old-work box. I've been doing this for over 35 (gasp!) years now, in Richmond. I've done it all.
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Wow. I hate to call you old, so let me just say, "I respect you wholeheartedly sir."

All kidding aside, being in Mass has led me down many K&T paths but not once did I imagine that they were doing remodels that involved adding K&T but now that I think about it...If the house didn't have any electricity when K&T was invented then they would have to retrofit it.

Thanks for the reply Larry!

Jay
 
kbsparky said:
One of the main reasons why I prefer to use 4-wire cable in such situations.:wink:
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:confused:

Now I am confused, there has never been a time where I have needed a 4 wire cable for three and four way switching, only 3 wire cable.
 
iwire said:
:confused:

Now I am confused, there has never been a time where I have needed a 4 wire cable for three and four way switching, only 3 wire cable.
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Go back and read the earlier posts, Bob.

In situations where you need to have both travelers and power run between multi-gang boxes, the use of a 14/4-wire cable solves this problem nicely.

A typical scenerio might be a utility room, with a single pole switch at the back door controlling an outside light in a 2-gang box and a 3-way switch for the inside light. The other end of the room would have a 2 gang box with the 3-way for the utility room inside light, and another switch for a closet light, or kitchen light, etc. The thing is you need both a hot and neutral in both multigang boxes as well as a couple of travelers between them.

While you could run a 14/2 and a 14/3 for this setup, (or 2 sets of 14/2 causing the EMF interference), the use of a piece of 14/4 kills 2 stones with one bird. :grin:
 
jaylectricity said:
Wow. I hate to call you old, so let me just say, "I respect you wholeheartedly sir."

All kidding aside, being in Mass has led me down many K&T paths but not once did I imagine that they were doing remodels that involved adding K&T but now that I think about it...If the house didn't have any electricity when K&T was invented then they would have to retrofit it.

Thanks for the reply Larry!

Jay
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Thanks Larry for making me feel young. I'm not going to respond to this thread because enough is said. But I too remember when I started we used brace and bit and also twist drills for block. I started in 1972 when I got out of the Marines. Semper Fi. Buddy
 
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