14-50R / Continuous Use (?)

[TwistLock]

Asked for some 14-50R’s at supply house today, Leviton rep was there, overheard, and asked it I were using them for an EVSE application. “No”, “Just some ranges, Why?”
He said the standard 14-50R’s were not the best choice for an EV application and that Leviton has come out with a new, more robust version. (didn’t tell him I prefer another brand for EV’s)
I was in a hurry, thanked him for the info, but left with a LOT of questions:

As I drove the first thought was ‘So the old ones aren’t for continuous use ?’
Were they having some ‘issues’ brought to their attention all this time and had to redesign ?
If so what about all the standard 14-50’s out there now cooking away in EV use ?

Have any of you guys been using this other version? How long have these been out? And why did they name the part “1450R” without the ‘dash’. Wouldn’t that just confuse a lot of people when ordering / differentiating?
Btw - I see they also have a “1450W” ‘Weather Resistant’ version - I like that.

https://leviton.com/products/1450r (image link posted seems broken so here's Leviton's page)

https://imgur.com/a/Z3dXF90

 

[TwistLock]

https://imgur.com/a/yzOXqay

 

[Jraef]

and that Leviton has come out with a new, more robust version.

Sounds like a product looking for a market... Do you REALLY think that UL has a time limit specification on the current carrying capacity of a 14-50 outlet? I doubt it.

"Hey boss, I got an idea to make more money. Let's put a little graphic symbol of a car on our 14-50 outlets and call them "specially designed for EVs", then sell them for more by convincing people they are different!"

 

[tortuga]

Do any EV chargers even use a neutral ?

Seems like a waste to run a 4-wire when all you need is a 3-wire.
Its like running a 10/3 to a waterheater.

 

[retirede]

Long discussion here:

https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/leviton-going-for-it.2579645/

 

[Jraef]

Do any EV chargers even use a neutral ?

Seems like a waste to run a 4-wire when all you need is a 3-wire.
Its like running a 10/3 to a waterheater.

I just ran across the fact that Tesla offers a number of different adapter options for their 24A Level 2 plug-in unit, but no NEMA 6-30 option (6-30 is 2 hots and ground). They offer 10-30 and 14-30 which both have a neutral and 10-30 has no ground, but no 6-30 option. That to me might mean they do use the neutral.

 

[wwhitney]

I just ran across the fact that Tesla offers a number of different adapter options for their 24A Level 2 plug-in unit, but no NEMA 6-30 option (6-30 is 2 hots and ground). They offer 10-30 and 14-30 which both have a neutral and 10-30 has no ground, but no 6-30 option. That to me might mean they do use the neutral.

No, it's for legacy reasons, that those receptacles are the ones used for clothes dryers. Not sure why they skip the 6-30; their adapter bundle includes 6-15 and 6-20.

https://shop.tesla.com/product/nema-adapter-bundle

Cheers, Wayne

 

[tortuga]

There is not even a lug to land the neutral on in a tesla EVSE.
It certainly does not pass thru that cord to the car.
Wow and I thought range neutrals were a waste of #8 copper now EV's are too.
I had an old thread on here looking for any range that actually used a neutral for a heating element.
I dont think we ever found a single one.

 

[LarryFine]

I believe it is dangerous and irresponsible to install a receptacle with a floating neutral terminal.

 

[mtnelect]

Sounds like a product looking for a market... Do you REALLY think that UL has a time limit specification on the current carrying capacity of a 14-50 outlet? I doubt it.

"Hey boss, I got an idea to make more money. Let's put a little graphic symbol of a car on our 14-50 outlets and call them "specially designed for EVs", then sell them for more by convincing people they are different!"

Sounds familiar ... Slap the word "Marine" on a standard electrical product and it's magically three times more.

 

[David Castor]

I'll just say that it's entirely possible to have two 14-50 receptacles that both pass the UL testing, but that are not equal in quality.

 

[LarryFine]

I'll just say that it's entirely possible to have two 14-50 receptacles that both pass the UL testing, but that are not equal in quality.

May be time for more testing.

 

[marmathsen]

I believe it is dangerous and irresponsible to install a receptacle with a floating neutral terminal.

I agree. I've never seen a charger that requires a neutral, yet most of the plug in chargers I've seen are configured for a 14-50R. So if you're prewiring for future, it makes sense to just run a neutral so you can properly setup a 14-50R.

Also, most of the conversation here was already covered in the thread @retirede referred to in post 5.

Rob G - Seattle

 

[BarryO]

I'll just say that it's entirely possible to have two 14-50 receptacles that both pass the UL testing, but that are not equal in quality.

Yea, lots of anecdotes that the $15 units available at the Big Boxes are overheating. How much of this is due to the receptacle quality and how much is due to the quality of the installation (e.g., proper terminal torque) is an open question IMO.

It sounds like Leviton has picked up on the buzz that their standard-issue products may not be up to the task and see a marketing opportunity to up-sell something new. 'would be interesting to buy both versions and disassemble them to see if there's any internal differences.

 

[BarryO]

Do any EV chargers even use a neutral ?

It's my understanding it's so that they can be plugged into existing 14-50 receptacles, as are common at RV parks and any place that provide hookups for large motorhomes.

 

[BarryO]

And why did they name the part “1450R” without the ‘dash’. Wouldn’t that just confuse a lot of people when ordering / differentiating?

"14-50" is the designation in the ANSI/NEMA WD 6 standard for these receptacles. "1450" is whatever Leviton decided to call their product.

 

[retirede]

Yea, lots of anecdotes that the $15 units available at the Big Boxes are overheating. How much of this is due to the receptacle quality and how much is due to the quality of the installation (e.g., proper terminal torque) is an open question IMO.

It sounds like Leviton has picked up on the buzz that their standard-issue products may not be up to the task and see a marketing opportunity to up-sell something new. 'would be interesting to buy both versions and disassemble them to see if there's any internal differences.

There are differences. These pictures compare Hubbel to the original Leviton. The new Leviton likely imitates the Hubbel.

 

[tortuga]

I am still hung up on the 14-50 vs 6-50.

It's my understanding it's so that they can be plugged into existing 14-50 receptacles, as are common at RV parks and any place that provide hookups for large motorhomes.

So not only are they proposing to force this pre-wiring for EV chargers, but we're going to one up it and make them buy some 6/3 for a neutral the electric car they will never buy will never use just becasue somebody might want to charge their car at an RV park?
How could that possibly make sense?

 

[retirede]

I am still hung up on the 14-50 vs 6-50.

So not only are they proposing to force this pre-wiring for EV chargers, but we're going to one up it and make them buy some 6/3 for a neutral the electric car they will never buy will never use just becasue somebody might want to charge their car at an RV park?
How could that possibly make sense?

I think in very early stages, EVSE makers looked at the most widely deployed 50A configuration and saw that it was 14-50 over 6-50 by a wide margin. They also knew that most people installing them at home needed a new circuit anyway. This was 15+ years ago when an extra wire didn’t make much difference in the installation cost.

I few manufacturers let you choose between 6-50 and 14-50 at time of purchase.

 

[tortuga]

14-50 has always been a mistake unless its for an RV.
In 1996 the code year when the code ended the 3-wire 10-50 for ranges, instead of going 6-50 and using a 240V clock and oven light, the manufacturers went 14-50 so they could use the same 120V light and clock as gas ranges.
By my calculations we've ran enough range neutrals to circle the earth 6 times since then, just for a clock and a light.