14-50R / Continuous Use (?)

[brycenesbitt]

I agree. I've never seen a charger that requires a neutral, yet most of the plug in chargers I've seen are configured for a 14-50R. So if you're prewiring for future, it makes sense to just run a neutral so you can properly setup a 14-50R.

And you never will. There's no provision for an EVSE neutral to extend to the vehicle.
The sole and as far as I can tell only reason that NEMA 14-50R rather than NEMA 6-50 became common is the prior generation of dryer or stove outlets.

NEMA 6-50 reduces copper cost, works the same.
@tortuga is exactly right above as to why.
And you can install 6-50 now for ranges, as long as you get a model that does not really use neutral (that's most of them, European ones for sure, no promises).

With a hardwire EVSE of course: no neutral no problem.

 

[brycenesbitt]

For reference, Tesla's standard adapters.
Hah, if vendors really wanted to make an EV specific NEMA 14-50 how about one without a neutral terminal

 

[Birken Vogt]

I have often wondered why when they designed the NEMA standard outlets, they did not make the 6-50 spacing the same as a 14-50, minus the neutral terminal, so you could plug your 6-50 welder into a 14-50 socket. Oh well.

 

[Jraef]

I have often wondered why when they designed the NEMA standard outlets, they did not make the 6-50 spacing the same as a 14-50, minus the neutral terminal, so you could plug your 6-50 welder into a 14-50 socket. Oh well.

I’ve never thought about it, but that’s a great question!

 

[garbo]

14-50 has always been a mistake unless its for an RV.
In 1996 the code year when the code ended the 3-wire 10-50 for ranges, instead of going 6-50 and using a 240V clock and oven light, the manufacturers went 14-50 so they could use the same 120V light and clock as gas ranges.
By my calculations we've ran enough range neutrals to circle the earth 6 times since then, just for a clock and a light.

Would save a lot of money if ranges & electric dryers had a $10 240 to 24 volt transformer for controls & a LED drum luminare thus only requiring cheaper 10/2 NMB cable and a cheaper receptacle. Years ago an old diner that I did work for replaced thier electric coffee brewer. Of course the new fancy unit required a grounded conductor. Diner was on a concrete slab and panel was over 75' away. Was no easy way to replace the 6/2 cable with 6/3 cable so I installed a 240 to 120 volt 100 VA fused transformer to power up the controls. Ten years later when this customer sold the diner it was still working.

 

[augie47]

Interesting that the rep seems to indicate that the particular product is somewhat:"inferior". I would have had to thank him but told him if I wanted a better product I'd buy Hubbel

 

[kwired]

Asked for some 14-50R’s at supply house today, Leviton rep was there, overheard, and asked it I were using them for an EVSE application. “No”, “Just some ranges, Why?”
He said the standard 14-50R’s were not the best choice for an EV application and that Leviton has come out with a new, more robust version. (didn’t tell him I prefer another brand for EV’s)
I was in a hurry, thanked him for the info, but left with a LOT of questions:

As I drove the first thought was ‘So the old ones aren’t for continuous use ?’
Were they having some ‘issues’ brought to their attention all this time and had to redesign ?
If so what about all the standard 14-50’s out there now cooking away in EV use ?

Have any of you guys been using this other version? How long have these been out? And why did they name the part “1450R” without the ‘dash’. Wouldn’t that just confuse a lot of people when ordering / differentiating?
Btw - I see they also have a “1450W” ‘Weather Resistant’ version - I like that.

https://leviton.com/products/1450r (image link posted seems broken so here's Leviton's page)

https://imgur.com/a/Z3dXF90

You do realize there is a Hubbell 14-50 receptacle that supposedly holds up to continuous loading better than most others and has been suggested to be used for EV's? Is also pricey in comparison.

Leviton likely decided to make one that would be comparable. The WR thing is likely a marketing thing and will likely end up being subject to being required by code sometime in the future whether any real justification for it or not, they will have many reasons why it should be required. Of course there needs to be same option by other manufacturers, but someone will follow along, and all will follow if it becomes code.

 

[TwistLock]

You do realize there is a Hubbell 14-50 receptacle that supposedly holds up to continuous loading better than most others and has been suggested to be used for EV's? Is also pricey in comparison.

Leviton likely decided to make one that would be comparable. The WR thing is likely a marketing thing and will likely end up being subject to being required by code sometime in the future whether any real justification for it or not, they will have many reasons why it should be required. Of course there needs to be same option by other manufacturers, but someone will follow along, and all will follow if it becomes code.

Yes, I've been buying the Bryant variation though. (mentioned I prefer another brand but didn't tell Rep).

Honestly considering using the new Leviton or Bryant-Hubbell, whichever I can get cheaper, for ranges too. I just don't trust the economy Leviton 279's terminals when stuffing everything back in the box anymore. With allens & a torque of 75in.lb. on the new Leviton etc. it would give me some peace of mind. I always feel like the 279 is going to crack apart or strip as I tighten.

*I have to follow up with homeowners after every appliance delivery now because I've learned that 'installation included' means leaving bond strap still attached from chassis to neutral inside range terminal box, throwing away cord strain relief, terminals nowhere close to 22 in.lb.(exactly how weak do you have to be not to be able to tighten to at least 22?), or the 14-50R rotated from original set. With the latter getting my attention I'll pull the receptacle out and, more than once, a wire is loose because someone messed with it. (oh, I have yet to ever see these guys install the anti tip bracket).

 

[brycenesbitt]

I have to follow up with homeowners after every appliance delivery now because I've learned that 'installation included' means leaving bond strap still attached from chassis to neutral inside range terminal box, throwing away cord strain relief, terminals nowhere close to 22 in.lb.(exactly how weak do you have to be not to be able to tighten to at least 22?), or the 14-50R rotated from original set. With the latter getting my attention I'll pull the receptacle out and, more than once, a wire is loose because someone messed with it. (oh, I have yet to ever see these guys install the anti tip bracket).

THIS is the real safety problem.
Indeed write all the code you want, if the guys on the truck from the Big Orange Store don't care.

 

[readydave8]

*I have to follow up with homeowners after every appliance delivery now because I've learned that 'installation included' means leaving bond strap still attached from chassis to neutral inside range terminal box, throwing away cord strain relief, terminals nowhere close to 22 in.lb.(exactly how weak do you have to be not to be able to tighten to at least 22?), or the 14-50R rotated from original set. With the latter getting my attention I'll pull the receptacle out and, more than once, a wire is loose because someone messed with it. (oh, I have yet to ever see these guys install the anti tip bracket).

me too

 

[kwired]

THIS is the real safety problem.
Indeed write all the code you want, if the guys on the truck from the Big Orange Store don't care.

I am not as concerned if someone does that when the range or dryer is supplied by the service equipment panel. You sort of end up with same thing you have in older installs where bonding to the grounded conductor is allowed.

I do check others work in new installation situations when not supplied by the service equipment panel. In that case you make every EGC from the feeder panel operate at whatever voltage drop is on the feeder neutral and/or end up with stray grounded conductor current through anything connected to the EGC. Once had a manufactured home that when they were doing some re-painting they had burned out some items the instant they unplugged the dryer to paint in that area. Someone never removed bonding jumper in the dryer, they had a bad neutral in the feeder to the home and the neutral, bonding jumper in the dryer along with EGC to the dryer was carrying the entire neutral load of the house feeder, until they interrupted it by unplugging the dryer.

 

[brycenesbitt]

You sort of end up with same thing you have in older installs where bonding to the grounded conductor is allowed.

The safer default would be if the bonding jumper were disconnected by default,
and the appliance refused to work (showing "PF" or power fail) until the grounding/bonding is sorted out....

 

[TwistLock]

..... and the appliance refused to work (showing "PF" or power fail) until the grounding/bonding is sorted out....

With the 2023, the GFCI breakers should start squealing on these installers, and the upset homeowners squeal even louder at the stores.

 

[electrofelon]

The safer default would be if the bonding jumper were disconnected by default,
and the appliance refused to work (showing "PF" or power fail) until the grounding/bonding is sorted out....

I don't think so, with no bonding jumper the thing would work fine but have a floating frame with no path back to the source.

 

[garbo]

You do realize there is a Hubbell 14-50 receptacle that supposedly holds up to continuous loading better than most others and has been suggested to be used for EV's? Is also pricey in comparison.

Leviton likely decided to make one that would be comparable. The WR thing is likely a marketing thing and will likely end up being subject to being required by code sometime in the future whether any real justification for it or not, they will have many reasons why it should be required. Of course there needs to be same option by other manufacturers, but someone will follow along, and all will follow if it becomes code.

With reports of so many inferior 50 amp EV receptacles burning up you would hope that UL & every testing labs would do a better job not approving the dangerous inferior products. Maybe if they tested them in real world circumstances like dampness, temperature swings, vibration, plug slightly pulled out of receptacle, even run 50% more current then rated for for several hours, etc they could weed out the lemons.

 

[kwired]

With reports of so many inferior 50 amp EV receptacles burning up you would hope that UL & every testing labs would do a better job not approving the dangerous inferior products. Maybe if they tested them in real world circumstances like dampness, temperature swings, vibration, plug slightly pulled out of receptacle, even run 50% more current then rated for for several hours, etc they could weed out the lemons.

I'd say they were originally designed and marketed for ranges, then mobile homes entered as well but none of those typically had the demand characteristics that a EV charger has. So the design was good until these EV chargers came along.

I will say the 10-50 receptacle (three wire range receptacle) has been used a lot on farms for things not originally intended and has held up pretty well for the most part. Lots of them around here powering single phase 10HP motors for portable grain conveyors/augers. Granted most them only run 15 to 30 minutes at a time to load or unload a truck then get a chance to cool off again.

 

[Sierrasparky]

You do realize there is a Hubbell 14-50 receptacle that supposedly holds up to continuous loading better than most others and has been suggested to be used for EV's? Is also pricey in comparison.

Leviton likely decided to make one that would be comparable. The WR thing is likely a marketing thing and will likely end up being subject to being required by code sometime in the future whether any real justification for it or not, they will have many reasons why it should be required. Of course there needs to be same option by other manufacturers, but someone will follow along, and all will follow if it becomes code.

I think Leviton just brought back the old style 14-50 that has the screws on the back. Then they charge 50 bucks. Marketing

 

[Fred B]

I believe it is dangerous and irresponsible to install a receptacle with a floating neutral terminal.

May Be but have seen the factory cord be a 14-50 but no neutral on the EV end of cord.

 

[LarryFine]

May Be but have seen the factory cord be a 14-50 but no neutral on the EV end of cord.

That's fine, but what's to stop someone from plugging in a different 14-50 plug?

 

[brycenesbitt]

I don't think so, with no bonding jumper the thing would work fine but have a floating frame with no path back to the source.

The idea would be only for appliances that can do a frame continuity check.
No ground no laundry. We have microprocessors and sensors these days....