14 ga. on 20 or 30 a circuit

[realolman]

In the 2005 NEC, Table 210.24 it shows 14 ga. as being allowed for taps on 20 and 30 a circuits.

What would be some examples of these "taps"

Would pigtails on 15 a. receptacles be one?

 

[480sparky]

In the 2005 NEC, Table 210.24 it shows 14 ga. as being allowed for taps on 20 and 30 a circuits.

What would be some examples of these "taps"

Would pigtails on 15 a. receptacles be one?

240.21(B) has most of the tap rules.

Pigtails are not taps.

 

[raider1]

Would pigtails on 15 a. receptacles be one?

I agree with 480, the wires connecting a receptacle to the branch circuit are not a tap but part of the branch circuit and as such must be protected against overcurrent the same as the branch circuit conductors.

Chris

 

[realolman]

Well, the reason I ask is that on another forum, I saw where someone asked if you could use 14 ga. pigtails to hook up a receptacle on a 20 a circuit.

Initially, I thought "heck, no", but I can't see any article where it is not permitted, and Table 210.24 actually seems to specifically permit it.

The only part of 240.21 ...(A)...that talks about branch circuits seems to be more about sizing the conductor to the load.

To what is Table 210.24 referring when it lists 14 wire on 20 and 30 amp circuits?

I think you can do that in lighting, but why wouldn't a pigtail for a 15 a receptacle qualify as well? Why would a pigtail not be a tap?

What article disallows a 14 ga pigtail for a 15 a receptacle on a 20 a. circuit?

 

[480sparky]

..........What article disallows a 14 ga pigtail for a 15 a receptacle on a 20 a. circuit?

310.15.

 

[mkgrady]

I would expect you could tap a #14 to a 20 or 30 amp circuit if you ran the tap first to a 15 amp fuse or CB before connecting it to a load.

 

[LarryFine]

I think you can do that in lighting, but why wouldn't a pigtail for a 15 a receptacle qualify as well? Why would a pigtail not be a tap?

Because a genuine tap has a known and controllable load limiting, whereas a receptacle can easily be loaded to (or beyond) the circuit's ampacity or OCP.

What article disallows a 14 ga pigtail for a 15 a receptacle on a 20 a. circuit?

How about 240.4(D)?

 

[realolman]

I would expect you could tap a #14 to a 20 or 30 amp circuit if you ran the tap first to a 15 amp fuse or CB before connecting it to a load.

That would change the 20 or 30 a. branch circuit to a feeder.
Table 210.24 is in the Branch Circuit article.

Although I think Larry Fine's point about the known connected load is a good one, if the known connected load was all that was involved, we wouldn't need OCPD at all.:smile:

I don't know. I suppose to continue would just be argumentative and pretty much pointless. Personally, I think 20 a. pigtails oughta be 12 ga. for the very reasons you stated.... but I really haven't seen anything that explains why table 210.24 shows 14 ga. taps allowed on 20 and 30 a circuits, and why a receptacle pigtail could not be considered a tap.

Maybe 210.24 oughta be modified.
Maybe I oughta be modified.:smile:

 

[infinity]

I don't know. I suppose to continue would just be argumentative and pretty much pointless. Personally, I think 20 a. pigtails oughta be 12 ga. for the very reasons you stated.... but I really haven't seen anything that explains why table 210.24 shows 14 ga. taps allowed on 20 and 30 a circuits, and why a receptacle pigtail could not be considered a tap.

Maybe 210.24 oughta be modified.
Maybe I oughta be modified.:smile:

No modification is needed. The connection to the receptacle is still part of the branch circuit. 240.4(D) already limits #14 to 15 amps.

 

[realolman]

OK ... how about an example of a 14 ga. tap on a 20 or 30 a circuit, as allowed by table 210.24, AND in compliance with 240.4 (D).

 

[Goroon]

a thought ?

a thought ?

Tap Conductors. As used in this article, a tap conductor is defined as a conductor, other than a service conductor, that has overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors that are protected as described elsewhere in 240.4.

:wink:Tap conductors start or end with an OCP in 240 to protect the wires. A 15A receptical on a 20 amp circuit has 20A of protection. the receptical is limited(configuration) to 15 amps but the wires are are required to be protected to the ampacity it is rated for. The receptical can be readily replaced but the wire would not be.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

OP, It's funny even though you asked 3 times not one person can offer an explination of why table 210.24 says you can have a #14 tap on a 20a circuit or give an example...I can't either... I've gone around and around with this thing.
240.4(D) says you have to have a #12 on a 20a unless allowed by 240.4(E)....240.4(E)(3) says taps are ok IAW 240.21 (location in circuit)

240.21(A) says you can have branch circuit tap conductors IAW with 210.20.

210.20 (B) says conductors have to be protected IAW 240.4 (a big circle) but cords and fixtures have to be protected IAW 240.5 which actually does allow smaller gages per OCPD in comparison to 240.4(D)

But table 210.24 specifically calls out the fixture wires and cords are a separate issue than taps and circuit wires....so I don't get it.

I guess I'll just do what everybody else is doing and start saying "It's obvious...no #14 pigtails on 20a circuits duh! If you need me to explain it than I'm not going tell you!"

Hey don't I get a bucket of chicken mailed to my house for my 1000th post?

 

[480sparky]

OP, It's funny even though you asked 3 times not one person can offer an explination of why table 210.24 says you can have a #14 tap on a 20a circuit or give an example...I can't either... I've gone around and around with this thing.
240.4(D) says you have to have a #12 on a 20a unless allowed by 240.4(E)....240.4(E)(3) says taps are ok IAW 240.21 (location in circuit)

240.21(A) says you can have branch circuit tap conductors IAW with 210.20.

210.20 (B) says conductors have to be protected IAW 240.4 (a big circle) but cords and fixtures have to be protected IAW 240.5 which actually does allow smaller gages per OCPD in comparison to 240.4(D)

But table 210.24 specifically calls out the fixture wires and cords are a separate issue than taps and circuit wires....so I don't get it.

I guess I'll just do what everybody else is doing and start saying "It's obvious...no #14 pigtails on 20a circuits duh! If you need me to explain it than I'm not going tell you!"

Hey don't I get a bucket of chicken mailed to my house for my 1000th post?

What's the difference between a pigtail and the rest of the circuit conductor?

 

[nakulak]

OP, It's funny even though you asked 3 times not one person can offer an explination of why table 210.24 says you can have a #14 tap on a 20a circuit or give an example...I can't either... I've gone around and around with this thing.
240.4(D) says you have to have a #12 on a 20a unless allowed by 240.4(E)....240.4(E)(3) says taps are ok IAW 240.21 (location in circuit)

240.21(A) says you can have branch circuit tap conductors IAW with 210.20.

210.20 (B) says conductors have to be protected IAW 240.4 (a big circle) but cords and fixtures have to be protected IAW 240.5 which actually does allow smaller gages per OCPD in comparison to 240.4(D)

But table 210.24 specifically calls out the fixture wires and cords are a separate issue than taps and circuit wires....so I don't get it.

I guess I'll just do what everybody else is doing and start saying "It's obvious...no #14 pigtails on 20a circuits duh! If you need me to explain it than I'm not going tell you!"

Hey don't I get a bucket of chicken mailed to my house for my 1000th post?

two one hp 115v motors connected on a 12awg branch ckt could have 14awg taps connecting them to ckt.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

What's the difference between a pigtail and the rest of the circuit conductor?

I'm not sure...The difference is simply wire size I guess. You can say the same about a feeder tap discribed in 240.21(B)(1)...to me it would be the same sort of configuration as a "pig tail tap"...

I don't have an answer as I said in the first sentence of my last post. I am just trying to state that no one is answering the OP question of what is the NEC talking about when is list taps for branch circuits in table 210.24.

What is an example?

 

[iwire]

Mike Holt has said 210.19(A)(2) prevents using 14 AWG pigtails to receptacles and up to this morning I have agreed with that.

But while thinking on this thread and looking at 210.19(A)(2) I am not so sure it does prevent using 14 AWG pigtails on 20 amp circuits.

It says the conductors shall not have an ampacity less then that of a the branch circuit rating ......... but even 14 AWG TW is rated 20 amps.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

Mike Holt has said 210.19(A)(2) prevents using 14 AWG pigtails to receptacles and up to this morning I have agreed with that.

But while thinking on this thread and looking at 210.19(A)(2) I am not so sure it does prevent using 14 AWG pigtails on 20 amp circuits.

It says the conductors shall not have an ampacity less then that of a the branch circuit rating ......... but even 14 AWG TW is rated 20 amps.

It also has some pretty specific qualifiers...

(2) Multioutlet Branch Circuits. Conductors of branch
circuits supplying more than one receptacle for cord-andplug-
connected portable loads shall have an ampacity of​

not less than the rating of the branch circuit.

There are BCs that don't fall within the scope of 210.19(A)(2)

 

[acrwc10]

Mike Holt has said 210.19(A)(2) prevents using 14 AWG pigtails to receptacles and up to this morning I have agreed with that.

But while thinking on this thread and looking at 210.19(A)(2) I am not so sure it does prevent using 14 AWG pigtails on 20 amp circuits.

It says the conductors shall not have an ampacity less then that of a the branch circuit rating ......... but even 14 AWG TW is rated 20 amps.

How about 240.4(D)(3)???? it says unless specifically permitted in 240.4(E) or (G) you cant OCP higher then 15 amp on a #14. This is not a tap if it is a multi outlet branch circuit.
The problem that will occur over time is when the outlet is overloaded the 14 will have the insulation harden and fall off causing an eventually failure in the circuit that could lead to a fire, This is not just my opinion it is a situation I see frequently in older homes.
Don't forget that just because one article of the code makes it seem as if you could do this it still doesn't override article 240.4(D) unless there is a specific article allowing you to ignore 240.4(D)

 

[iwire]

The problem that will occur over time is when the outlet is overloaded the 14 will have the insulation harden and fall off causing an eventually failure in the circuit that could lead to a fire,

14 AWG is rated 20 amps, it can handle 20 amps and the NEC allows us to use it for 20 amps for many items.

This is not just my opinion it is a situation I see frequently in older homes.

I think you have come up with the wrong reason for what you are seeing.

240.4(D) unless there is a specific article allowing you to ignore 240.4(D)

Like 240.4(E)?

 

[acrwc10]

In the 2005 NEC, Table 210.24 it shows 14 ga. as being allowed for taps on 20 and 30 a circuits.

What would be some examples of these "taps"

Would pigtails on 15 a. receptacles be one?

14 AWG is rated 20 amps, it can handle 20 amps and the NEC allows us to use it for 20 amps for many items.



I think you have come up with the wrong reason for what you are seeing.




Like 240.4(E)?[/QUOTE]

I don't see receptacles on the list in 240.4(E) :smile: Maybe I'm not reading something into the post that is not there, just saying your hard pressed to show that you can ignore the limit of a 15 amp breaker on a #14 wire in a multi receptacle branch circuit.