15 AMP in Retail - Commercial Restaurant space

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CAFEDNA

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ARIZONA
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COMMERCIAL INTERIOR ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGNER
I have a client that wants / insists we use 14 GA wire and 15 AMP breakers in their retail restaurant space due to 5 of 35 light fixtures they need. Why and how do I tell him we cannot and should not do this?
 
The light fixtures are most likely LED, so a 15 amp circuit would most likely be more than sufficient. I’m betting the fixtures have their own j-box, and are not rated for #12 wire. The manufacturers get away with extremely small boxes that also contain the drivers.
 
hillbilly1 said:
The light fixtures are most likely LED, so a 15 amp circuit would most likely be more than sufficient. I’m betting the fixtures have their own j-box, and are not rated for #12 wire. The manufacturers get away with extremely small boxes that also contain the drivers.
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I'm generally running 14 AWG to such luminaires in most cases.

In commercial may be a little more likely you can make a fixture tap from say a junction box on structural ceiling and drop down to the luminaire - just like was common one time with fluorescent lay in luminaires. Could even be a 16 or 18 AWG tap off a 20 amp branch circuit.
 
hbiss said:
I believe that places like NYC prohibit 15A circuits in commercial. Could be a local amendment where he is?

-Hal
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Prohibit all 15A circuits or just on circuits supplying general use 120 volt receptacle(s)?

The latter I can see making some sense. There are many fixed items that it doesn't make sense for, particularly when you have a circuit operating at more than 120 volts.

Multi wire 277/480 circuit to some heaters could supply like 13kw of load and be on a 15 amp circuit. Same amount of load at straight 120 needs over 100 amp circuit. Common sense says go with those 277 volt heaters and the 14 AWG wire if you have the correct supply for it. But those that make the rules tend to throw out common sense a lot and instead attempt to make one size fits all type rules.
 
kwired said:
Prohibit all 15A circuits or just on circuits supplying general use 120 volt receptacle(s)?
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There is no prohibition on 15 amp circuits. Back 20 years ago the old NYC electrical code prohibited 20 amp general lighting and receptacle circuits. 277 volt lighting circuits were then 20 amp circuits as were individual branch circuits and SABC's. Since NYC has a minimum branch circuit conductor size of #12 using 15 amp circuits really make no sense.
 
Be sure to check local amendments. Other than that not an issue. I would just pull 12 and put in a 15 amp breaker if that is what he wants. If in a raceway it may become an issue if mixed 15 and 20 amp wiring as the EGC of a wire type would be required to be minimum #12 if other circuits are on 20 amp breaker.
 
hbiss said:
I believe that places like NYC prohibit 15A circuits in commercial. Could be a local amendment where he is?

-Hal
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Here in the city you can use a 15A OCPD, some appliances require it you just can't use 14 AWG wire, 12AWG is the minimum size.
 
infinity said:
Since NYC has a minimum branch circuit conductor size of #12 using 15 amp circuits really make no sense.
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Some product listings require a 15A OCPD, such some bath fans, LED drivers and recently to my surprise a ductless heatpump required a 2 pole 15.
 
infinity said:
There is no prohibition on 15 amp circuits. Back 20 years ago the old NYC electrical code prohibited 20 amp general lighting and receptacle circuits. 277 volt lighting circuits were then 20 amp circuits as were individual branch circuits and SABC's. Since NYC has a minimum branch circuit conductor size of #12 using 15 amp circuits really make no sense.
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So they basically banned 14 AWG.

I hope they at least still allow it or smaller for limited power circuits like controls and such.
 
kwired said:
So they basically banned 14 AWG.
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Yes more like never allowed it, its been cited as the reason for fewer AFCI requirements.
electrofelon said:
I was going to ask if fixture whips/taps are still allowed.
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The NYC amendment to 210.24 sums it up:

Replace the value “14” that appears twice in the column headed 15A, and once
each in the columns headed 20A and 30A in the Circuit Rating Section with the value “12.”

There is no amendment to 240.5 for fixture wires and controls.
Any other place in the code where it says #14 minimum its changed to #12.
infinity said:
Controls yes, for branch circuits, no.
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Remember don't lump the old firealarm circuits with controls they need to be 12 also.
 
gene6 said:
Yes more like never allowed it, its been cited as the reason for fewer AFCI requirements.

The NYC amendment to 210.24 sums it up:

Replace the value “14” that appears twice in the column headed 15A, and once
each in the columns headed 20A and 30A in the Circuit Rating Section with the value “12.”

There is no amendment to 240.5 for fixture wires and controls.
Any other place in the code where it says #14 minimum its changed to #12.

Remember don't lump the old firealarm circuits with controls they need to be 12 also.
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AFCI requirements is another ball game, but assuming they do what they claim they will do I don't see why conductor size would make a difference in why you should or should not require AFCI protection. You still can plug in a 18-2 lamp cord into a receptacle circuit that has 12 AWG branch circuit conductors or maybe even 10 AWG for voltage drop reasons.
 
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