150Amp main breaker on a 200 Amp Buss FAILED inspection, why?

Learn the NEC with Mike Holt now!

150Amp main breaker on a 200 Amp Buss FAILED inspection, why?

  • APS Utility Inspector Failed inspection is right?

    Votes: 1 12.5%

  • Bisbee City Inspector Passed inspection is right?

    Votes: 7 87.5%
  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

techtonix

Member
Location
Bisbee, Az
I am writing this question because of how the combination Load Center didn't pass through Inspection with my local utility due to the manufacturer's inconsistency in marking and labeling, let me explain... The SquareD 150 Amp load center (SC816F150PS) shares the same body as the 200 Amp model SC816F200PS. On the body itself the load center is listed at 200 Amps, however the permanently / factory installed main breaker is rated at 150 Amps as the serial number and description also agree with. Because the main breaker and serial number say 150 amps and because this is what I pulled a permit for, I sized the overhead conduit and wiring to 1.5" dia which is appropriate as per their specs. The utility inspector saw the 200 amp rating on the body of the box and failed the inspection stating that the conduit should be 2"dia, meaning I would have to buy entirely new hardware and copper wiring throughout, having me re-do everything costing me easily $300 and setting construction back two weeks, all because of combined and economized factory specs. City and utility inspectors can't even agree on this and I'm stuck with a residential construction site with no electricity. So what gives, which inspector is right?
20170324_105725-look.jpg
 
First, Utility companies run their own show. Passing a local (govt) inspection does not guarantee they will provide power until you satisfy their rules.
Second: Are you sure he failed it based on the 150 amp ? Utilities often have a minimum conduit size based on the strength of the conduit not the wire size.
 
They both could be right based on what they're enforcing. Maybe the POCO has a rule stating that a dual rated enclosure must be used for the higher rating. I'm just guessing. From an NEC perspective your installation is compliant.

As Augie touched on was the raceway being used as a mast to support the drop?
 
augie47 said:
First, Utility companies run their own show. Passing a local (govt) inspection does not guarantee they will provide power until you satisfy their rules.
Second: Are you sure he failed it based on the 150 amp ? Utilities often have a minimum conduit size based on the strength of the conduit not the wire size.
Click to expand...

Great questions!

1> If I could afford to go off-grid, I would these guys are nuts.
2> The way the office representative posed the email and phone replies to me was based on the 200 amp rating, not strength of conduit. I followed all their worksheets and codes (their own PDF charts and specs) to a T with all the mounting rails, bolts, grounding in two locations, even putting a new address sign on my house, no making these guys happy...

So if it is based on the 200 Amp buss with a factory installed 150 Breaker what's the deal in your opinion?
Here is the box I got, which I got from the Utilitie's pre-approved list
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...er-Plug-On-Neutral-CSED-SC816F150PS/206498052
 
infinity said:
As Augie touched on was the raceway being used as a mast to support the drop?
Click to expand...
Yes, it protrudes from the roof line a whole 12" before the guide-wire clamp, then up another 8" exactly as their diagram said I should.
I also anchored the mast twice up the facade of the house with utility rails and brackets with through-bolts all the way through the studs of the house. The Inspector didn't bring up the strength of the conduit at all as an issue (but I wasn't there to meet / talk with the person)
 
The Utility project manager never mentioned a structural or strength issue. I followed all their stipulated rules about Mast height, utility rail connections, through-bolts into studs, and so forth. The mast only goes up 18" from the roof as they outlined. The manager mentioned only the Buss rating of 200Amps being an issue.
 
Other threads have noted that LADWP requires that the service must match the maximum available main breaker for the panel board.
Among other things this prohibits installing a higher rated panel with a small main breaker to meet the 120% rule for PV backfeed. Unless the service is also upgraded, that is.

mobile
 
GoldDigger said:
Other threads have noted that LADWP requires that the service must match the maximum available main breaker for the panel board.
Among other things this prohibits installing a higher rated panel with a small main breaker to meet the 120% rule for PV backfeed.
Click to expand...
Interesting... I picked this from a list of Pre-Approved Load Centers they sent me.
Also this is designed to be Solar-ready.
 
If the buss is rated at 200 amps, sounds like the only thing you need to change is the riser hardware. The wiring need not change. Changing just the hub, riser, weatherhead, and straps would not take very long, few hours at most.

I would ask that utility inspector for more detail on what the problem is.
 
City of Palo Alto has the same policy; service conductors must match the rating of the enclosure no matter the OCPD size. It is a BS requirement in my opinion but if it is in their book they can require it.

The city inspector is correct on his end if the local electrical code is any version of the NEC. But as has been pointed out, they can both be right with respect to enforcing the requirements each is tasked to enforce.

I would guess that the best you can do is ask to see the actual written utility policy and pray it does not actually say what the utility inspector says it says.
 
Sorry for your dilemma.

My feeling is that the 150A as you installed should pass.

My feeling is also why does anyone put in a 150amp and not just go with a 200 amp..

:- )

Good luck with it.
 
jaggedben said:
I would guess that the best you can do is ask to see the actual written utility policy...
Click to expand...

I will do this exact recommendation, many thanks.

I actually don't mind it too much when an inspector throws the book at me if I've not done research. In this case I've tried my absolute best to meet code and do everything by their book, and still get hammered by a hidden curveball that costs me a lot of money and lost time.
Fighting this one out...
:rant:
 
I am going to throw the "Charlie's Rule" flag on this play. Take a close look at the text below the two catalog numbers and the “Rainproof” line. It says that the 200 amps is the maximum rating for the main breaker and the bus work. It then says that you need to look at the service disconnect, in order to discover what the service rating is. The fact that the main breaker is 150 amps is what determines the rating of this panel.
 
fwiw, I went through that argument with the utility I mentioned and they insisted that their policy was based on the rating of the 'enclosure'.
 
(3) 2/0 THHN Compact conductors, which are the vast majority of what supply houses provide, are approved for 200amp residential service entrance conductors 2014NEC 310.15(b)(7). They will fit a 11/2" pipe 2014NEC Table C.8(A). (In CA, we're on the 2014 code, but I don't believe there were any changes on this in the 2017)

Seems to me all you need to do is upsize the conductors to make the utility inspector happy.
 
Chamuit said:
You need to go read section 401.9 of the Electric Service Requirements Manual. Look at the little chart on the page.

https://www.aps.com/library/esp services/400.pdf
Click to expand...

I did look at the service rating. The service rating is 150Amps which follows the service disconnect breaker size (as noted by the manufacturer), as such the conduit size needs to be 1.5" not 2"
This is the same PDF and chart I used, they emailed me these as a reference before starting!
 
Hi All

The box is rated according to the Service Disconnect breaker size as noted in the enclosure itself (see photo).

I have sent this annotated photo back to the poco manager which has sent this dispute to committee review.

Will let y'all know what the committee decides.

many thanks!20170324_105725-look1.jpg
 
He is looking at the bus rating being 200A max. I ran into this situation on a house in Laveen. He's the AHJ... I hope it goes well with the POCO.

On my situation, I just did what the guy wanted. Being an EC I just used the material on another job.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top