electricguy61
Senior Member
A dispute committee? Good grief. Wouldn't want common sense to get in the way of a good bureaucracy.
150Amp main breaker on a 200 Amp Buss FAILED inspection, why?
- Thread starter techtonix
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techtonix
Member
- Location
- Bisbee, Az
:rant:
quoting from the inspector... So I was completely correct about conduit size and wire size, proved them wrong on that account. Now they threw something else at me, saying my dual OH/UG meter is not safe, from the manufacturer... :rant:
I received a response from our Meter Shop and unfortunately, the panel is not approved for OH use in APS territory. The manufacturer does not have an OH kit that moves the terminations from below the meter socket to above the meter socket and we do not allow the conductors to run down past the side of the meter socket to the lower terminations because of the side torque that the wires place on the mechanical lugs. The lugs tend to come loose and create hot spots on the terminating bus.
The wire and conduit size for the 150amp would be correct, but this panel type cannot use for overhead use.
quoting from the inspector... So I was completely correct about conduit size and wire size, proved them wrong on that account. Now they threw something else at me, saying my dual OH/UG meter is not safe, from the manufacturer... :rant:
I received a response from our Meter Shop and unfortunately, the panel is not approved for OH use in APS territory. The manufacturer does not have an OH kit that moves the terminations from below the meter socket to above the meter socket and we do not allow the conductors to run down past the side of the meter socket to the lower terminations because of the side torque that the wires place on the mechanical lugs. The lugs tend to come loose and create hot spots on the terminating bus.
The wire and conduit size for the 150amp would be correct, but this panel type cannot use for overhead use.
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Unfortunately, this kind of stuff sometimes goes off the rails when people in positions of authority (usually to a minor degree) are challenged and proved wrong. I once had an inspector twice on the same job go to something else looking for an excuse to fail me when his first attempt was based on an erroneous reading of the NEC. He was wrong all three times and I prevailed, but subsequent encounters were... awkward.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Mall cop syndrome. It's hard to cure.
Both a win and a loss. I agree with you on the wire size. If you look at the link to the service manual that someone posted, it says the details are typical, and "not meant to cover every installation." It also says the wire sizes are typical recommended sized, and actual sizes are to be determined by the AHJ.
But I think I do agree on their last comment. It doesn't look like that combination meter/panel has a gutter for the wires to go down past the meter.
I don't suppose they will let you LB into the bottom side of the meter? Or maybe run down below the meter and use a lockable wireway or gutter to do a U-turn and come up into the bottom of the enclosure?
RichB
Senior Member
- Location
- Tacoma, Wa
- Occupation
- Electrician/Electrical Inspector
Our outside services use a 250 amp buss and a 200 amp breaker--works fine
meternerd
Senior Member
- Location
- Athol, ID
- Occupation
- retired water & electric utility electrician, meter/relay tech
POCO opinion....
POCO opinion....
Great thread, but as a "former" now retired POCO guy, here's my humble opinion. Why put in a 150 Service? I wouldn't think it could be much cheaper than a 200A. Our utility has a facilities charge based on 200A and below being the same charge. We occasionally had a customer put in a 100A or 150A main (because the monthly fees were less) and then after the fact, would install a 200A main and assume the utility would never know. Most meters now are 200A, so a 150A would get the same meter. Wire size is based on connected load, but usually a 200A (or less) would get a standard 200A service drop wire size. I know 99.999% of people are honest, but there are that few who make the utility a bit paranoid. Most utilities will connect to whatever the customer has as far as riser conductors. Not our job to verify Code compliance. All utilities are different and unfortunately, for you, they usually have the last say regarding conduit size, panel type, connection location, etc. Sorry, but that's the real world. Easier to just make 'em happy.
POCO opinion....
Great thread, but as a "former" now retired POCO guy, here's my humble opinion. Why put in a 150 Service? I wouldn't think it could be much cheaper than a 200A. Our utility has a facilities charge based on 200A and below being the same charge. We occasionally had a customer put in a 100A or 150A main (because the monthly fees were less) and then after the fact, would install a 200A main and assume the utility would never know. Most meters now are 200A, so a 150A would get the same meter. Wire size is based on connected load, but usually a 200A (or less) would get a standard 200A service drop wire size. I know 99.999% of people are honest, but there are that few who make the utility a bit paranoid. Most utilities will connect to whatever the customer has as far as riser conductors. Not our job to verify Code compliance. All utilities are different and unfortunately, for you, they usually have the last say regarding conduit size, panel type, connection location, etc. Sorry, but that's the real world. Easier to just make 'em happy.
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ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
We in the solar biz (at least around these parts) will often replace a 200A bus with a 225A bus but leave the main breaker at 200A so that we have 70A of headroom under the 120% rule instead of the 40A we would have with a 200A/200A panel. It's completely legit and NEC compliant. It makes no sense to me that a POCO would have a problem with it.
meternerd
Senior Member
- Location
- Athol, ID
- Occupation
- retired water & electric utility electrician, meter/relay tech
Service size (at least in our district) is determined by main breaker size. If it has a 200A main, it's served with 200A sized service drop and fees are for a 200A service. But...we had a clever guy who applied for a 200A service (fees are less than 400A), but bought a 400A service panel with two slots for main breakers, meant to be set up as two parallel 200A service disconnects. Only one was installed, so it was supplied as 200A. Yes, a 200A meter will fit in a 400A socket. After the service was in for a while, we got a call from the current renter that their lights were dimming and blinking. Guess what....the owner installed a second 200A to feed a HUGE hot tub and commercial grade kitchen area. Melted meter cover was kind of a dead giveaway. Not what the OP described, but an example of why panel ratings interest utilities.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
That seems like a good reason for utilities to be picky if something in the service has a rating above 200A. It seems less so if everything is rated 200A or less.
techtonix
Member
- Location
- Bisbee, Az
Wow that's a really good point!!
I'll make sure to bring that up with the inspector.
Do you happen to know where I can find the 120% rule, what listing that under?
They have redacted their conduit size issue and slammed some other even more seemingly arbitrary rule at me saying...
"The manufacturer does not have an OH kit that moves the terminations from below the meter socket to above the meter socket and we do not allow the conductors to run down past the side of the meter socket to the lower terminations because of the side torque that the wires place on the mechanical lugs. The lugs tend to come loose and create hot spots on the terminating bus. " Yea I get that... come and inspect the damn thing to make sure the lugs are not loose. I'm this close to filing a complaint with the Corporate Commision!
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jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
2011 Code 705.21(D)(2) and (7)
2014 Code 705.12(D)(2)(3)(b)
2017 Code 705.12(B)(2)(3)(b).
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
You fatfingered that one, I believe. In the 2011 NEC it's 705.12 as well.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Correct. Oops.
That requirement has been around for quite a while with overhead services. They do have a Preapproved Services List which the coordinator should maybe have mentioned to you (especially since your profile says you are an architect and not a regular EC.)
The whole ESR manual is here, in case you need it in the future, or, if it can help you with your current situation.
techtonix
Member
- Location
- Bisbee, Az
Well their pre-approved list is completely out of date, with most of the selection being out of production, or only purchasable if you're a licensed electrician. I am an owner/builder, there are few choices for me, if I am planning to have a solar panel system installed. Pursuant 2017 Code 705.12(B)(2)(3)(b) I need a 150 amp breaker, a 200 amp bus and a solar-ready interface. THis is the only box made on their pre-approved list, which is available to me and is solar-ready. The box is designed to be dual OH, UG, that's why I bought it, no other options availabe to me. It's their meter shop that says it's not usable for OH, saying they don't like how the wires do a U-turn into the lugs when they come from OH. The box has a built-in tunnel. See attached images.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Why put in a 200 amp service when load calculation is under 100? happens a lot.
What difference should it make if you buy a "convertible main's" loadcenter with main lugs with 225 amp bus but choose to install a 100, 125, 150, 175 or 200 amp main breaker? Especially more difficult to find the one with a 175 amp main already installed but maybe you have a reason to want to do that?
I have installed 1200 amp panels supplied with only 750 amp of service conductor (using the 6 disconnect rule) , and have had more then 1000 amps if you added all the main breakers together. Load calculation was still under 500 and that was all that really mattered.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
If utility has minimum specs on raceway size when used as a mast, understandable they might want 2 inch.
Otherwise they typically don't care what you do. You could have a 400 amp main breaker in there but if the load is fairly minimal you can bet they only supply it with a 25 kVA transformer and maybe #2 aluminum triplex for the service drop.
Otherwise they typically don't care what you do. You could have a 400 amp main breaker in there but if the load is fairly minimal you can bet they only supply it with a 25 kVA transformer and maybe #2 aluminum triplex for the service drop.
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