15or 20 A mp c/b
- Thread starter kiss
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
Cost.
Box fill.
Cost.
Box fill.
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
The code tell us that 15 Amp branch circuit must be used in lighting circuit and the min. size of wire is #14awg, and 20 Amp branch circuit for outlet and small appliance circuit and min. size of wire is #12 awg. This is because if you will look on the table for wire ampacity this wire is the nearest.You can use higher wire base on ampacity but you can not use lower current ampacity.
The code is designed for maximum safety and not for other reason. So if you used much smaller wire let say your max. load current is 14Ampere
and you use #16 awg for the wiring because your computation say #16 has an ampacity of say 16 AMP and when the short circuit occur the wire will over heat and the insulation will be broken and that is the start of electrical fire but if you conform to the code you will have the maximum safety even to the said situation.
The code tell us that 15 Amp branch circuit must be used in lighting circuit and the min. size of wire is #14awg, and 20 Amp branch circuit for outlet and small appliance circuit and min. size of wire is #12 awg. This is because if you will look on the table for wire ampacity this wire is the nearest.You can use higher wire base on ampacity but you can not use lower current ampacity.
The code is designed for maximum safety and not for other reason. So if you used much smaller wire let say your max. load current is 14Ampere
and you use #16 awg for the wiring because your computation say #16 has an ampacity of say 16 AMP and when the short circuit occur the wire will over heat and the insulation will be broken and that is the start of electrical fire but if you conform to the code you will have the maximum safety even to the said situation.
roger deas
Member
- Location
- North_Carolina
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
Wye delta,
Roger
Wye delta,
Where does the code, or should I ask, what code requires this?
Roger
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
Sounds like some local amendments.You could use 15 amp breakers on #12 if your working under NEC but local might not allow it.Many use #14 to save time by back stabbing ,as well as box fill.
Sounds like some local amendments.You could use 15 amp breakers on #12 if your working under NEC but local might not allow it.Many use #14 to save time by back stabbing ,as well as box fill.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
Never said to use 20 amp breaker on #14.
What i said was you could use a 15 amp breaker on #12
Backstabbing only works on #14 with recepticles,that is why some wire in #14
Never said to use 20 amp breaker on #14.
What i said was you could use a 15 amp breaker on #12
Backstabbing only works on #14 with recepticles,that is why some wire in #14
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
In NYC you can only use # 12 wire or larger for branch circuits(except for exceptions).No # 14. Is there any reason you would use a 15 amp breaker
for lighting and recept circuits.
ok, here ya go
you've got an outbuilding, (they probably don't have those in NYC, but anyhow) you only need a 15 amp circuit to cover all the lighting and receptacle loads in this outbuilding.
The distance from the distribution panel is of a sufficient amount to warrant #12 wire for voltage drop.
I'm glad my commission isn't figured on how many 15 amp circuit breakers I sell in NYC, cause this situation wouldn't occur often.
In NYC you can only use # 12 wire or larger for branch circuits(except for exceptions).No # 14. Is there any reason you would use a 15 amp breaker
for lighting and recept circuits.
ok, here ya go
you've got an outbuilding, (they probably don't have those in NYC, but anyhow) you only need a 15 amp circuit to cover all the lighting and receptacle loads in this outbuilding.
The distance from the distribution panel is of a sufficient amount to warrant #12 wire for voltage drop.
I'm glad my commission isn't figured on how many 15 amp circuit breakers I sell in NYC, cause this situation wouldn't occur often.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
I use 14-2wg as often as I can. It is easier for me to tie-in. It is not a cost issue since I run my circuits "light". Talking about cost, all my sigle gang boxes are 1250s. It is not becuase I can not fiqure cubes. It gives me the option of changing my mind without taking the time to R&R a box. Saving your(by your I mean everyone) time will make you more than trying to save a few cents on material.
I probably run my circuits at half their capacity.
I have a problem with muncipalities acting as if they are smarter than the writers of the NEC.
Mike P.
I use 14-2wg as often as I can. It is easier for me to tie-in. It is not a cost issue since I run my circuits "light". Talking about cost, all my sigle gang boxes are 1250s. It is not becuase I can not fiqure cubes. It gives me the option of changing my mind without taking the time to R&R a box. Saving your(by your I mean everyone) time will make you more than trying to save a few cents on material.
I probably run my circuits at half their capacity.
I have a problem with muncipalities acting as if they are smarter than the writers of the NEC.
Mike P.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
Mike i too use the deep box's it often saves my butt when something gets added or allmost forgot.The cost is maybe 10 cents more per box $10 bucks for average home.Local AHJ should just let the big boys write the code.They seldom solve any problems but almost always cause confusion to guys that might work more than one state or county.It is a national code and no need to change it on a local level.If the article doesn't cover a problem in there area then summit it to the board.
Mike i too use the deep box's it often saves my butt when something gets added or allmost forgot.The cost is maybe 10 cents more per box $10 bucks for average home.Local AHJ should just let the big boys write the code.They seldom solve any problems but almost always cause confusion to guys that might work more than one state or county.It is a national code and no need to change it on a local level.If the article doesn't cover a problem in there area then summit it to the board.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
In NYC you can only use # 12 wire or larger for branch circuits...Is there any reason you would use a 15 amp breaker
for lighting and recept circuits?
Is there any reason you would HAVE to? I can't think of one. Make em all 20's.
Is there any reason you would WANT to? Other than if you were out of 20's I can't think of one either.
In NYC you can only use # 12 wire or larger for branch circuits...Is there any reason you would use a 15 amp breaker
for lighting and recept circuits?
Is there any reason you would HAVE to? I can't think of one. Make em all 20's.
Is there any reason you would WANT to? Other than if you were out of 20's I can't think of one either.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
I would rather have a 15 on that lamp cord made in japan.The lower the breaker the safer it gets.
I would rather have a 15 on that lamp cord made in japan.The lower the breaker the safer it gets.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
NYC has its own electrical code which (in most cases) exceeds the NEC. Pierre, if you can jump in on this one I've been out of the City for some time now and I don't know the particulars, perhaps you can shed some light.
Phil
NYC has its own electrical code which (in most cases) exceeds the NEC. Pierre, if you can jump in on this one I've been out of the City for some time now and I don't know the particulars, perhaps you can shed some light.
Phil
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
Jim, do you really think goods made in Japan are inferior to ours.
Look at the Toyota trucks running down the road with 300,000 miles and more on them.
Remember this forum is "World Wide" and even accessible to Japan.
Roger
Jim, do you really think goods made in Japan are inferior to ours.
Look at the Toyota trucks running down the road with 300,000 miles and more on them.
Remember this forum is "World Wide" and even accessible to Japan.
Roger
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
Wasn't trying to slam anyone but we all know some lamp cords are way under size for 20 amp protection.And i would rather walk if i can't drive a FORD lol
Wasn't trying to slam anyone but we all know some lamp cords are way under size for 20 amp protection.And i would rather walk if i can't drive a FORD lol
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
Hbiss
Couple of reasons why I use 14 AWG:
In a rewire, fishing NM and old work boxes, I use 14 AWG for lighting, 12 AWG for receptacles. With 14 AWG for lighting, I don't have to worry as much with box fill. I don't do much residential rewiring, though.
I do a lot of instrumentation and control wiring. for the power to instruments (flow recorders, analyizers, turbidimeters) I use 14 AWG as the load is minor and the instrument terminals are not always sized for 12 AWG. Most of this type equipment is IEC -European and its very compactly sized.
Hbiss
Couple of reasons why I use 14 AWG:
In a rewire, fishing NM and old work boxes, I use 14 AWG for lighting, 12 AWG for receptacles. With 14 AWG for lighting, I don't have to worry as much with box fill. I don't do much residential rewiring, though.
I do a lot of instrumentation and control wiring. for the power to instruments (flow recorders, analyizers, turbidimeters) I use 14 AWG as the load is minor and the instrument terminals are not always sized for 12 AWG. Most of this type equipment is IEC -European and its very compactly sized.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
14-2 is very common for lighting/recepticle here in Tampa, 12-2 for small appliance circuits
14-2 is very common for lighting/recepticle here in Tampa, 12-2 for small appliance circuits
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
Mayor Blumberg has built buildings outside of NYC, and when building one in NYC, he was told his building did not comply with the NYC code (the last time NYC had a code cycle was 1987). So he had the city write a new code. To make a long story short, NYC adopted the 1999 NEC with 323 amendments. Starting January 1st, 2004, NYC will refer to the 2002 NEC with about the same number of amendments. If one chooses, you can still reference the '99 until July 1st 2004. In 2005, it looks as though NYC will reference the 2005 NEC, and will stay current with the NEC cycle from then on.
Some of the amendments are minor and some are BIG, some delete exceptions, and some delete whole articles.
As mentioned in another post, 12 AWG is the smallest building wire permitted for building wiring in NYC as per one of the amendments. Services and fire alarms and fire pumps are articles that have many amendments.
NYC is independent of NY State as far as code and licensing. NYC requires a license, and a large portion of NY State does not. Local municipalities and counties have licensing requirements. One can drive north of NYC for about 45 minutes and no license for doing electrical work would be necessary. If your dog can pull wire, he can be an electrician.
NY State does have it's own new building codes, which includes a special residential section. For all intents and purposes, the NEC is referenced, but it is not adopted. It is referenced as a standard (it is an NFPA standard, and is not an official code unless adopted).
For NYC references and a copy of the amendments, you can log onto their website and download the info.
Pierre
Mayor Blumberg has built buildings outside of NYC, and when building one in NYC, he was told his building did not comply with the NYC code (the last time NYC had a code cycle was 1987). So he had the city write a new code. To make a long story short, NYC adopted the 1999 NEC with 323 amendments. Starting January 1st, 2004, NYC will refer to the 2002 NEC with about the same number of amendments. If one chooses, you can still reference the '99 until July 1st 2004. In 2005, it looks as though NYC will reference the 2005 NEC, and will stay current with the NEC cycle from then on.
Some of the amendments are minor and some are BIG, some delete exceptions, and some delete whole articles.
As mentioned in another post, 12 AWG is the smallest building wire permitted for building wiring in NYC as per one of the amendments. Services and fire alarms and fire pumps are articles that have many amendments.
NYC is independent of NY State as far as code and licensing. NYC requires a license, and a large portion of NY State does not. Local municipalities and counties have licensing requirements. One can drive north of NYC for about 45 minutes and no license for doing electrical work would be necessary. If your dog can pull wire, he can be an electrician.
NY State does have it's own new building codes, which includes a special residential section. For all intents and purposes, the NEC is referenced, but it is not adopted. It is referenced as a standard (it is an NFPA standard, and is not an official code unless adopted).
For NYC references and a copy of the amendments, you can log onto their website and download the info.
Pierre
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b
Is NYC electrical jobs any better or safer?
Is NYC electrical jobs any better or safer?
- Status