15or 20 A mp c/b

[speedypetey]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

Maybe a little safer since it's all pipe, MC & BX. The work is light years harder though. For many reasons.
I have done several jobs in the city, this was well over 10 years ago. You could not pay me a NYC electrician's wage to go back!!
Sorry guys that's just me.

 

[kiss]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

PIERRE thanks for all that, it seems you're on top of this.

 

[pierre]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

Jim
Take a peek at the amendments for NYC as they are now. You will see some of them are interesting and I say the CMP's might be interested themselves in them.

Pierre

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

send a link or web address

 

[wyedelta]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

hey guys I wonder we have NEC if it not followed and why there is electrical board if the NEC will not be adopted as the basic rules and regulation regarding electrical installations.
We must conform to the local code but NEC will be the highest priority.
I don't know guys how you do your job in electrical wiring but a designer always specify the required size of wire for every branch circuit, so I guest you once try to read electrical plan signed and seal by professional electrical engineer so that you will know why have 15 and 20 branch circuit.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

Was handed a print from electrical engineer /arc.to wire some up scale town houses $600,000 each.He drew a beautiful set of prints including complete electrical down to the circuits and what he wanted on them.He noticed i did not follow them and wanted to know why.I then as nicely as i could explained his violations had i wired to his print.
1.He had lights on small appliance circuits.
2 out side receptacles off small appliance circuits.
3 dining room receptacles on living room circuit.
4 bathroom receptacles on circuits used in a hall.
The list was long.He just turned around and walked out and i heard no more from him.
The point here is although he was an engineer he had no idea about house wiring.Was told later that he mostly does commercial buildings.
So who should we follow? engineer,NEC ,local AHJ ?.NEC has been around longer than me and has qualified staff to write and change the code as needed for the buildings we are wiring today.They sometimes fail to make there wishes clear.Should local AHJ be changing the code ? I think not. They should allow NEC to stand alone as sole makers of code and deal with enforcing it.Why should a journeyman or master not be able to wire anywhere and be able to use the same rules.

 

[scott thompson]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

Jim;

So who should we follow? engineer,NEC ,local AHJ ?

Here's where the circle of compliance applies

Bottom line - NEC is the most basic compliance end - kind of like a "Default" minimums (or maximums) if no other amendments or specifications take priority.
We cannot go below the NEC minimums - unless someone in the Engineering Realm has successfully proven an alternative is safe, and that alternative is accepted by a Governing body (in Bikini would be a change... joke).

Overriding the NEC will be local AHJs, which have adopted it and created amendments to it, and published their own local code (and it's accepted by the Governing Gods). If there are local codes, then these will be the determining factor to minimum compliance.

These two areas cover the Minimum Code Compliance requirements for a given installation. These items may be exceeded (made "Better Than The Minimums), but not "Fallen Below" (less than minimums).

Now comes Contractual Authority(s) Having Jurisdiction!

Project Specifications - either noted directly on Plan Sets, within Project Specification Manuals, or both, are the Minimal Specified Installation requirements for a given project - but may not fall below the minimal compliance of the AHJ (code governing the location of the project) - unless proven to be safe by an EE, under that EE's supervision, and accepted by the AHJ.

Specs typically exceed minimum code requirements, and cover areas which an AHJ has no authority (such as device color).

The "Circle" here is that there's a "Default" minimum compliance, which must at the least be met by THE INSTALLING PERSONNEL. Plancheck looks for design compliance when the EE submits a set to the Building Department for permit issuance. Most design issues are caught in plancheck - but sometimes one slips by without being noted for revision. These are found later in field Inspections, and are the EE's "Boo-Boo". Getting compensation for a FWO on those issues may be simple, or turn into a Nuclear Bombing scenario of "Nasty-Grams" sent to related parties.
If non-compliance is an Installation related issue (using #14 TW al on 150 Amp breakers for example, or packing a 4s box with 35 #12s as another example), then the Installer is liable for this one.

The Circle revolves around as the "Desired Installation" target goals attempt to exist with the "Actual Installation" and the "AHJ's Minimums". Each item revolves around the others, so there's really no better way to say it than the "Circle of Authority".

In a nutshell, install per project specs. If the specs do not comply to minimum applicable codes, the issue(s) must be brought to the Designers' / Client Represenatives' attention, and rectified prior to installation.
If no specs exist for a given project, the minimum compliance will be the local applicable code.

Clear as mud, isn't it?

Scott35

 

[iwire]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Should local AHJ be changing the code ? I think not. They should allow NEC to stand alone as sole makers of code and deal with enforcing it.Why should a journeyman or master not be able to wire anywhere and be able to use the same rules.

Jim I have seen you say this a few times and of course we would all like the rules to be universal.

But it is not up to the NEC to decide the codes for each municipality.

I do not see this changing any time soon.

Laws are different state to state and codes will be too.

Some local rules may make good sense for a particular area.

Lets say the NFPA said you must adopt the NEC in whole with no changes or not at all, I would bet my state (we have about 80 changes) would stop adopting the NEC at all, that would be much worse in my opinion.

Bob

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

Scott,

Bottom line - NEC is the most basic compliance end - kind of like a "Default" minimums (or maximums) if no other amendments or specifications take priority.

Provided that the NEC has been adopted by some governmental unit. In many areas there are no codes that have been adopted.
Don

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

What is unfair is that a man works 20 years in one state and county /town, has passed a masters license.Then he moves to another state and basically starts all over again with a test.Just a dream that we could have a license good for all 50 states,and all be wiring with the same codes.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[iwire]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

I have had to take tests in RI, CT and MA, no big deal, luckily MA is reciprocal with ME, NH and VT.

The company I work for expects and pays me to have licenses in all the New England States, many of my coworkers do have all 6.

Strangely I only have the 3 I had to test for, I have the papers in my van to fill out for the rest.

Depending on the state we get a 2.5% to 5% kick in pay for each license, plus they pay for renewals and testing.

We kind of make out on the deal.

[ December 31, 2003, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

Seems like harassment to me.Would you want to take a test in every state you drive in ?
One test should be enough.Score results maybe optional.
HAPPY NEW YEARS TO ALL
no more post from me this year LOL

 

[hbiss]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

Hbiss
Couple of reasons why I use 14 AWG:..

That's not the question. The question is if the smallest wire size you were able to use for lighting and recept branch circuits was 12 AWG, is there any reason you would use a 15A breaker to protect it rather than a 20A.

 

[iwire]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

Only reason I can think of would be for a HVAC unit that requires a 15 amp max breaker size.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: 15or 20 A mp c/b

The adjustment factors required for more than 3 conductors in a raceway or cable and for high ambient temperatures may limit the OCPD for the #12 to 15 amps.
Don