1953 Federal Pacific situation

[ramsy]

Hi Roger, (house is a 1963 not a 1953.. ..I would like to install the ARK - fault, as installing receptacles will trip even from walking and creating static with the carpet

Never seen AFCI or GFCI breakers for Federal Pacific Electric equipment.

Unless using type BR sub-panels, you are stuck with AF/GF outlet replacements in locations specified by NEC 210.12

Static-charge buildup is felt from fingers touching cover-plate screws, but proper 3-conductor cables with grounding discharge static along Equipment Grounding Conductors, or the Grounding Electrode System. Reset devices tied to Hot & Neutral should not see static discharged along grounding paths.

Perhaps your 1960's 2-wire outlets are "bootleg" wired. An illegal pig-tail from Neutral to device Grounding yolks would re-direct static discharge from cover-plate screws to Neutral, monitored by AFCI or GFCI electronics.

4-35k volts (en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_electricity) may even destroy electronic reset devices monitoring micro amps at much lower voltages.

 

[al hildenbrand]

house is a 1963 not a 1953.

1963 makes a lot more sense with respect to what the inside of the two panels look like. All those grounding wires twisted together will be "reduced gage" as the 1962 NEC was the first Code to require all the branch circuit 120 V 15 & 20 A receptacle outlets be of the grounding type.

For 1963, the three-wire feeders to the two panels with the neutral bonded to the enclosure is just plain wrong. The only thing that would permit it would be local ordinance, or inspector's call. The fact that you report the original installer did a good job, to me, indicates a high likelihood of local ordinance or inspector's call.

 

[ramsy]

..1962 NEC was the first Code to require all the branch circuit 120 V 15 & 20 A receptacle outlets be of the grounding type. For 1963, the three-wire feeders to the two panels with the neutral bonded to the enclosure is just plain wrong..

CA lags 7-years behind latest code cycles. Ops business card shows license#'s from Washington & Arizona, which may also lag > 1 year.

1963 buildings are not likely to have adopted 1962 NEC code requirements.

 

[al hildenbrand]

CA lags 7-years behind latest code cycles. Ops business card shows license#'s from Washington & Arizona, which may also lag > 1 year.

1963 buildings are not likely to have adopted 1962 NEC code requirements.

And yet, to my eye, there are all those #16 grounding conductors twisted into two bundles in the larger panel. . .

 

[ramsy]

And yet, to my eye, there are all those #16 grounding conductors twisted into two bundles in the larger panel. . .

Excellent eye. "Bootleg" outlets are less likely, if #16 EGC is bonded to back of metal boxes, rather than Bakelite.

Where in the panel should they put those EGC's, before 1962 code was adopted?

Especially if service-rated load centers were still being sold without a grounding bus, and no EGC bus was required yet?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Excellent eye. "Bootleg" outlets are less likely, if #16 EGC is bonded to back of metal boxes, rather than Bakelite.

Where in the panel should they put those EGC's, before 1962 code was adopted?

Especially if service-rated load centers were still being sold without a grounding bus, and no EGC bus was required yet?

Staying with the OP, I'll side step the discussion of all the ways the receptacle outlet grounding conductor was installed in the early enforcement of the 1962 NEC.

And I'll side step the discussion about pre-1962 service equipment grounding conductor termination.

Staying with the photos Louis (Esthy) has shared with us, look closely at the panel diagrams inside the cover doors and compare with the panel neutral terminal bars. Both panels indicate that a thru-buss bolt beside the largest terminal lug is the Main Bonding Jumper to the panel enclosure. Each of the two panel labels call out the MBJ location with "Bond when req'd" and an arrow. As it is today with many service equipment rated panels that are installed as subpanels, one purchases a separate terminal bar to install for the (then) grounding conductors (now EGCs).

The installer of these two panels has deliberately, it appears, installed the main bonding screws, and deliberately installed a three-wire feeder from the remote Service Disconnnect (then called MAIN Disconnect). I'm betting, based upon Esthy's description of the quality of the workmanship, that the local AHJ inspected and approved the installation under local ordinance and practice.

 

[zog]

Never seen AFCI or GFCI breakers for Federal Pacific Electric equipment.

.

I know they made GFCI's, I actually have a pile of new (Well new old stock) ones for some reason, don't think they ever made AFCI's though.

 

[mbrooke]

They never did, unless you want Schneider's version:

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/sc...-fault-circuit-interrupter-breaker/1000112733

 

[al hildenbrand]

They never did, unless you want Schneider's version:

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/sc...-fault-circuit-interrupter-breaker/1000112733

Your link is not to a Combination-Type Arc Fault stab-lok.

Schneider Electric published this FAQ May, 2018. in which they state that the Combination-Type Stab-Lok AFCI is not available.

 

[Eddie702]

I find in Massachusetts that a lot of sub panels installed more than 30 years ago or so were installed with the neutral bonded to the sub panel. Not right but I guess they passed inspection. Now that dryers and stoves have been made 4 wire I think there is less confusion about keeping neutrals and grounds separated in a sub panel

 

[mbrooke]

Your link is not to a Combination-Type Arc Fault stab-lok.

Schneider Electric published this FAQ May, 2018. in which they state that the Combination-Type Stab-Lok AFCI is not available.

Yupper- which is good if you ask me. They switched the stab lock line to Homeline which I think is better.

If you want my honest opinion everything about FPE's load centers, panelboards, breakers and MCBs was bad design from the day the patents were drawn up. More material more complex manufacturing, more to go wrong, more to go bust. There is a reason why everyone took the Westinghouse and GE designs. Lack of imitation is the sincerest form of disapproval.

 

[mbrooke]

I find in Massachusetts that a lot of sub panels installed more than 30 years ago or so were installed with the neutral bonded to the sub panel. Not right but I guess they passed inspection. Now that dryers and stoves have been made 4 wire I think there is less confusion about keeping neutrals and grounds separated in a sub panel

Dude!

Trust me, in some parts of the country that was the norm, not the exception. Around here its the same. Also tons of stoves and dryers with 10-2 and 6-2 NM without ground.

How are your subs fed btw? NM without ground? SEU? SER and they just bond it anyways?

 

[Esthy]

Good morning, I want to clarify something, my idiomatic expressions and grammars are horrible as I am not a native BUT I don't think with an accent (LOL) When I mentioned that I want to install Ark Fault, etc.,I am referring with NEW panels (I personally like square D). There are not #16 EGCs, all are #14, 12 and10 twisted in the panels AND/BUT grounded to the receptacles/switches BOXES. The curious thing is that the workmanship - maybe incorrectly at that time, WAS good, BUT the later additions are horrible. A pool was add in 1986, so the pool company "double tap one of the disconnects (photo 3) to create their subpanel (photo 2) and with neutral and ground bonded (no GFCI at all); later on. an HVAC company installed new system and BINGO, they used that pool's subpanel to add the feeder for their system. This house has now 8 points MBJs (it doesn't make sense to me this term) as: 2 "service panels", 2 HVAC and pool subpanels, the 2 main disconnects in the gutter, the dryer, an upright oven and the stove ... Gosh, and in my head too!

 

[__dan]

A long time ago I reached the point that it became very diifcult to service other people's work (after doing it for a lifetime) because of the liability issues that may continue after, due to left behind by others. The owner would have to be made aware of what would be left behind, because of their budget imperative to not spend the necessary money. That decision is theirs.

I would look at it as a needed update, and from the customers I get to hear a lot of 'the updating has been done and I just want you to fix it'. Yes but it looks like it was updated by the gardener.

Still pretty easy to load test the breakers and see if yours trip. One extension cord with two or three power tools on it should give some necessary and valuable information. I would do that early and want to know what equipment is staying, and what is advised to come out.

The multiiple N to G bonding points will be more of an issue, objectionable, if the parallel paths for the neutral current include stuff really unwanted like aluminum siding, telephone and water lines, fencing ... Last time I ran into something like that and the owner wanted to keep it, I had him make the final tie in of the branch feeder at the new main panel, because I did not feel like surveying everything and guaranteeing his home built chicken coop was OK.

 

[Esthy]

I have the analyzer on the picture, but I was waiting for replacement breakers in case of any damaged one. I cannot let those circuits off as it involve medical and exercises equipment. I have a complicated, because of the money, situation ahead, but on the end I will replace everything even if I have to absorb the costs. I know those customers for many years and they gave me a lot of houses to remodel, so, I am grateful for that and I cannot sleep in peace until I give them a safety environment. I know I can force the HVAC and Pool company to share those costs or redoing their mess, but my customers don't want to start a battle as they are in not in good health. Their opinions? nothing happened in 56 years, so why now?

 

[Esthy]

And I add, that you cannot take the money to the grave, I am 76 years old and in very good conditions, my father died at 97 because he retired at 96, and any way, I prefer work as my wife talk to much and it is crazy. LOL

 

[Little Bill]

And I add, that you cannot take the money to the grave, I am 76 years old and in very good conditions, my father died at 97 because he retired at 96, and any way, I prefer work as my wife talk to much and it is crazy. LOL

:rotflmao: