So what would be gained (in terms of safety) by requiring certain colors in certain installations?
1968 NEC color code
- Thread starter dnem
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So what would be gained (in terms of safety) by requiring certain colors in certain installations?
The biggest problem with expanding the color scheme is that there are a limited number of colors
Primary colors are red, blue, yellow
Secondary are purple, green, orange
Add in black, white, grey, brown and you max out at 10 unique options
Actually you max out at 9 unique options because I can't begin to count the number of times I've dealt with a greybrown conductor that has been color batched by a manufacturer who doesn't give a damn what the product actually looks like. Many times you can only understand how the greybrown is being used by looking at its neighbors. If there's a grey included in the conductor group, then the greybrown is being used as a brown. If there's a chocolate colored conductor included in the conductor group, then the greybrown is being used as a grey.
How about the grey 3M electrical tape. Put it next to duct tape and you would swear you're looking at white electrical tape. So getting enough colors would be impossible.
There's no way to create multiple unique and easily identifiable color schemes for many different voltage sources
I've never worked outside of Ohio so I can only speak about what I've seen. I commonly see ALL systems over 250v [including those in the plants that I work in now] coded brown, orange, yellow, grey.
Our plants electrical distribution is very typical. Panels are all glue backing sticker or hard plastic labeled by voltage and source location. All junction boxes and equipment disconnects are all glue backing sticker labeled by voltage, panel, and circuit number. So when you add conductor color or electrical tape color of black, red, blue, white for under 250v and brown, orange, yellow, grey for over 250v, it does the job. I don't see that any change or addition to this setup would be of any use.
Well, Brown, Orange, Yellow (with a stripe) is already required for a system, see 517.160(A)(5). I really don't know why using Brown, Orange, Yellow, with out a stripe was a problem, if someone is working in an area served by an Isolated Power System I would think they would be qualified enough to know what system they were working on. :roll:
Roger
Our plant uses brown, orange, yellow for 4160v and that's used for dozens of motors and their control centers.
Once we go higher than that, the focus on solid labeling info is far more obvious than any coloring. There's 13,200v from substation to substation and from the turbine generator and 135,000v from the utility into the main substation only. All of those systems are tagged brown, orange, yellow but for sync and rotation purposes only. The level of access control and training and proceedures in place for all interaction with 13,200v equipment makes the color code a minor footnote. The size of the enclosures and all of the clearances scream out that you're dealing with a completely different animal. You never even approach 13,200v equipment without a full plan and knowledge in place.
I know the "ship has already sailed" on the decision making process and there isn't anything that can be done to change things now in 2015 but......
if I could go back a hundred years and make one change in coloring in the electrical code, I know exactly what I would do
I would lobby against grounded conductor identification being specified as white and grey
I would lobby for grounded conductor identification being specified as white and yellow
if I could go back a hundred years and make one change in coloring in the electrical code, I know exactly what I would do
I would lobby against grounded conductor identification being specified as white and grey
I would lobby for grounded conductor identification being specified as white and yellow
That's interesting -- I didn't know that section existed. I wonder if it's one of those things that they simply forgot to remove when they removed the other color requirements or if there's actually a legitimate reason for keeping this vs. removing the others. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that it's not grounded?
The only place I know of where these are still widely used is hospital ORs. I've never seen or specified them anywhere else.
And even now I don't want/specify/allow them in ORs.
You wouldn't have a choice in NC, they are required in OR's, Triage Rooms, PACUs, etc..., I believe this is the case in SC and FL as well.
Roger
Grey was not allowed to be a grounded until just a few cycles ago. 2002 IIRC.
Without researching it [because I'm kind of lazy] I'm falling back on my fading memory. I thought natural grey has always been called out by the NEC as a grounded conductor and 2002 was the point that the word natural was eliminated. I was told that natural was eliminated because it wasn't quantified by some specified level of shade or RGB values. The NEC intended that the term "natural grey" was to be a very very very light shade of grey [such as 3M grey electrical tape] but that "memo" was never received by the whole rest of the world. For decades all shades of grey were used as grounded/neutrals. We were definitely using dark grey as an over 250v neutral in Cleveland back in the 90s and many years before that.
So the story goes, the NEC finally realized that no one knew what the word "natural" meant and found out that jobs had been being installed with dark grey neutrals. They apparently decided to throw out the word natural and ignore the fact that conductor manufactures are producing greybrown conductors that are sometimes used as a phase conductor and other times used as a neutral.
"Natural Gray" was a very very light gray. So light, that you'd probably mistake it for white. And it's been decades since anyone actually made any. So up until the elimination of the word 'natural', the gray we use today for a neutral was either installed incorrectly as such, or installed properly as an ungrounded conductor.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
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- Master Electrician
Exactly that's why I heard the color code requirement was removed.
Remember before the 2005 NEC green could be used as a hot conductor...
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
I'm down wit dat. To things come to my mind......Here there are a lot of of old High Leg systems phased Black, Red, Blue,.....if you don't pay attention you can cook something quick.
Then there is the feed store that was maintained for years by an old, colour blind electrician. You don't assume anything based on wire colour there.
mikelynd
Member
- Location
- Kalispell, MT. USA
Colors
Colors
I think we need o sorta standard as I just worked in a building that had every branch circuit yellow leaving the breaker. So when you where trouble shooting you would find it to be a yellow wire was the problem read the tag on it go turn off such numbered breacker and nope numbered wrong. Now this is in a open building and it's like finding a needle. Pisses me off. And anyone that thinks we shouldn't have color code hope you get to deal it some day.
And how hard is it, to cheap to buy other colors?
Colors
I think we need o sorta standard as I just worked in a building that had every branch circuit yellow leaving the breaker. So when you where trouble shooting you would find it to be a yellow wire was the problem read the tag on it go turn off such numbered breacker and nope numbered wrong. Now this is in a open building and it's like finding a needle. Pisses me off. And anyone that thinks we shouldn't have color code hope you get to deal it some day.
And how hard is it, to cheap to buy other colors?
- Location
- Massachusetts
I deal with it all the time and still do not want a code mandated color code.
People don't follow the few color codes we have now, what makes you think they would follow more color codes?
- Location
- Illinois
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- retired electrician
Natural grey was just the insulation without any pigment added to the material when it was made.
From one of the proposals for the 2002 code where the word "natural" was removed.
mikelynd
Member
- Location
- Kalispell, MT. USA
I know people don't follow everything but if we had a standard color code and it was in the code. We could make the inspectors up hold that. But I see that you are one of them that just wants to do it your way and don't tell me what to do. So I my mind you are the problem.
Unless one of us is on one of the code panels, its highly doubtful that anything anybody says here will amount to squat. But saying that someone that disagrees with you is "the problem" will certainly result in a flame war
I guess at this point, this thread is gassing out anyway so........ I guess........ flame on. Have at it and then somebody will come and lock the thread down at some point.
But Im just thinking........
There should be a better way to discuss without resorting to low blows
to mikelynd
This 2014 edition hits 771 pages of 8 1/2 by 11 pages and theres still another hundred pages of Annexs.
Isnt it about time that somebody starts putting the breaks on more and more and more and more.
I remember when the code book was just a little thing. Are we really that much safer with these 771 pages ?
When does telling somebody what to do become unnecessary micromanaging ?
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