(2) Apartments and (1) Retail Space

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radiopet said:
well I never gave you my stance. I also believe they should be grouped. However, I was told point blank by a chief electrical inspector from somewhere i dont know that I was wrong and each space is treated like an individual building and the meter does not determine a service so he said that no grouping was required....so i just listed and the first post i made was what transired.
Based on that, it's my opinion that you're much better educated than that Chief-guy. I've appealed rulings to the "chief" on the fact that the underlings require me to always bring my "line" into the top terminals on a breaker that has line and load terminals, but they're aren't specifically marked as such. His exact words, "It's always been the intent of the NEC that the line conductors go on the top terminals." Huh? Whatever, old man...

Now that we're thinking alike, I take back the fat jokes, Paul. :grin:
 
Paul, just out of curiosity, do you know how many electrical permits and/or building permits were issued for the job in question? One for each supposed "building", or one for the whole works?
 
lol....thats ok marc i dont mind fat jokes..if the shoe fits i will wear it...unless i am too fat ofcourse....:)

This was just a weird meeting.....after the meeting many of them who know me came up and said who was that guy....heck i never met him before...oh well ...guess he wont attend any of my seminars....oh well...
 
As i read ...If a meter bank is hit with one lateral the disconects should be grouped or just a main breaker....What if the same retail spaces were hit all with seperate laterals and lets say the meters are mounted in the same area, seperate services, Would you then have all the discs outside or could you put them wherever inside and out?
 
If i recall they had said that each space had it's own permit. But again thats from memory now but I believe that was the case in their example.

I will assume its a real senerio.......not sure which locality however.
 
:-? Does this say what I think I thought it said:-?


Report on Proposals A2007
? Copyright, NFPA NFPA 70

Substantiation:
Exception No.1 to 230.40 is the source of considerable
misunderstanding for installers as well as inspectors. It is in apparent conflict
with 230.70(A)(1)
Readily Accessible Location, and with 230.72(A)
Grouping of Disconnects.
It is also in apparent conflict with the basic safety
premise of 230.71(A)
Maximum Number of Disconnects.

When taken literally, 230.40 Exception No. 1 would seem to allow an
unlimited number of disconnects in an unspecified number of tenant spaces, as
long as there were no more than six at any one location. There is no mention of
area separation requirements that are essential to prevent the spread of fire and
provide for the safety of fire fighters or rescue personnel. In the event of a fire,
earthquake or other disaster, rescue personnel would be severely hampered by
working against energized service, feeder, and branch circuit conductors that
could not be readily disconnected at a common location in such an emergency.
The term ?occupancy? is not defined in the National Electrical Code or in
the generally adopted building codes. The building codes (several words are
unreadable) some which require fire rated or area separation walls, and others
which do not. The result is that ?occupancy? in 230.40, Exception No. 1 is
used to justify running service conductors to a number of tenant spaces. With
the flexible tenant space nature of many commercial buildings, this results in
modified spaces that have no service or panel, or enlarged tenant spaces and
may have two sets of service conductors and disconnects within the single,
enlarged tenant space. This creates additional Code violations, besides the
extremely hazardous situation created by having multiple service locations in
the original building configuration.
The National Electrical Code has continually moved forward to promote
safety for buildings, the occupants, and rescue personnel. 230.40, Exception
No.1 runs counter to those safety concepts. There is no compelling need for
this exception, as other provisions in Article 230 provide ample opportunities
for installations to be made in every conceivable building and to every
occupancy, without the associated hazard of running service conductors to each
of them. It is time to remove this unnecessary exception to an otherwise good
installation standard for electrical services.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:
This particular exception has been in the NEC since at
least the 1946 NEC where Section 1807 permitted, by special permission,
more than one set of service drop in a multi-occupancy building where there
was no available space for service equipment accessible to all occupants.
This exception permitted the occupant to have access to their own service
disconnecting means. Section 1837 required a multiple occupancy building
having individual occupancies above the second floor to have the service
equipment grouped in a common accessible location and to consist of not
more than six switches or circuit breakers. However, any multiple occupancy
building that did not have any individual occupancy above the second floor
could have the service conductors run to each occupancy and have up to six
switches or circuit breakers at that location.
Since this rule has existed since the early 1940s without a major change to
the intent, there does not seem to be a compelling reason to change this section
of the Code and there was no technical substantiation given in the proposal to
provide a reason to delete this rule. The submitter did not provide any specific
examples of problems that have occurred where service entrance conductors
have been installed in accordance with the current permissive requirements in
this section.
Exception 1 to 230.40 is a necessary and commonly used allowance for
supplying power in multiple occupancy buildings. The building is still only
permitted to have one service riser or lateral that would allow the power to be
removed from all occupancies when necessary by the disconnection of the riser
or lateral conductors.

Number Eligible to Vote: 10
Ballot Results:
Affirmative: 10
____________________________________________________

 
It seems to me that as long as the local FD is on board with this then it could meet 90.4s 'equivalent objectives'.

We are only talking location of the equipment, not like the overcurrent protection and grounding of the equipment.
 
splinetto said:
...What if the same retail spaces were hit all with seperate laterals and lets say the meters are mounted in the same area, seperate services, Would you then have all the discs outside or could you put them wherever inside and out?
In that case, the NEC "service point" is pretty much the same still. Group your disconnects. The only time I see that you can legitimately have some service disco's seperate from other service disco's is when you have another "service point" in another location.
 
M. D. said:
:-? Does this say what I think I thought it said:-?

____________________________________________________

The panel statement talks about buildings with multiple service drops in various places. That's not what we're talking about here. One lateral, in this case.
 
I guess so,..but what is this comment about

The building is still only
permitted to have one service riser or lateral that would allow the power to be
removed from all occupancies when necessary by the disconnection of the riser
or lateral conductors.
 
M. D. said:
I guess so,..but what is this comment about
They're referring to a rule oft broken. This is where some people are required to shunt trip all the other services from each lateral location. Doesn't square with the NEC either, but does make it safer than not doing that. There might be an arrangement that would have one lateral disconnect with 2 or 3 break glass operators mounted next to it to trip the other service disco's.
 
their is a nice image of the single latteral in the handbook....the commentary states one latteral and how to group but he would not listen so i did not press it.....It was his meeting really and i was just attending for our locality.
 
Marc said:
They're referring to a rule oft broken. This is where some people are required to shunt trip all the other services from each lateral location. Doesn't square with the NEC either, but does make it safer than not doing that. There might be an arrangement that would have one lateral disconnect with 2 or 3 break glass operators mounted next to it to trip the other service disco's.



Marc,.I think not,..they are talking about sevice entrance conductors.
 
Last edited:
marc

230.40 allows you to run one set of service entrance conductors to each occupancy, and 230.71 allows six disconnects for each set of service entrance conductors permitted by 230.40 exception #1, they would have to be grouped in that tenant space
 
mpd said:
marc

230.40 allows you to run one set of service entrance conductors to each occupancy,...
Yeah, but you really gotta back up and read 230.2 to see if you can even use that exception in the first place...
 
the more I read that Rop the more I understand that the exception in 230.40 applies to a single drop or lateral and has nothing whatsoever to do with multiple drops or laterals.
 
Required to be grouped . Each set of service entrance conductors run to each occupancy is allowed up to six handles,... they would need to be grouped in the individual occupancy.

Did you read that ROP Paul , what did you think ?

I'm sure , they were quite sure,.. that what they were discussing were in fact 1 service drop or lateral with service entrance conductors run to each occupancy individually.
 
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