2 meters for one office

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Jim W in Tampa

Jim W in Tampa

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Tampa Florida
If one building contained 2 offices with seperate meters and panels could we remove the seperating wall to make this one big office ? The 2 meters and 2 disconnects are grouped.They have seperate runs to the pad mounted transformer.
 
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If a two occupancy building is converted to a single occupancy, which article allows more than one service???

Charlie
 
cpal said:
If a two occupancy building is converted to a single occupancy, which article allows more than one service???

Charlie
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For you and I IMO Rule 3 would do it. :)

As for those outside MA it will ultimately be up to the AHJ but IMO it would be reasonable to expect that the AHJ would be OK with 230.2(B) (C) or (D).

You have to admit that 230.2(B)(2) is pretty vague and open to the AHJs determination of large.

AsI said this is just my opinion. :)
 
Thanks Bob
I can understand that feeders are protected and there is little concern for their routing through the other occupancies. I also understand that the premises wiring is in existing. That being said, I do have a concern on a reno that changes the building from a single structure to a multiple structure, or in fact the other way. This is a significant reno. I'm not sure Rule 3 always applies.

I do not have a proble with more than one service to a building or structure, but I do not believe that it is automatically permissable to do so. Don't forget that the list of permissable additional services or feeders (230 and 225) were origanlly exceptions and the style manual requires that exceptions are only applicable if the main rule can not be followed (or something like that). I think the CMPs need to do some more house keeping

Charlie
 
iwire said:
For you and I IMO Rule 3 would do it. :)

As for those outside MA it will ultimately be up to the AHJ but IMO it would be reasonable to expect that the AHJ would be OK with 230.2(B) (C) or (D).

You have to admit that 230.2(B)(2) is pretty vague and open to the AHJs determination of large.

AsI said this is just my opinion. :)
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After reading all of these i dont think its ok.Building is maybe 5,000 sq feet and amperage is only 2x150 =300 single phase.It simply was a change in needs and building is in final trim mode.I do admit i cant see any danger involved.
 
I think it is acceptable, but you may have to get the AHJ to invoke 230.2(C)(3). You are not supplying a single structure with two services. You are supplying two structures that are being converted into a single structure, and the two services already exist. IMO 230 wasn?t written with this possibility in mind.

Am I right in thinking that the reason for limiting a building to a single service is to simplify the process of removing power, such as to make it safe for fire fighters? With the two services side by side, you can achieve that goal.

What is the alternative? Can you convert one of the two ?service panels? into a sub-panel, and feed it from the other? Do you need the capacity of both transformers in order to supply the calculated load for the new configuration?
 
Personally, I don't think that 2 services is compliant or will be allowed.
I would certainly talk to the AHJ before I made any changes.
As iwire posted...The AHJ could allow it per 230.2(C)(3), but if he's like most AHJ's that I "know", I doubt it.
Since there are "two meters and 2 disconnects that are grouped", I assume that the feeders from these "disconnects" to the inside panels are already 4 wire?
If that's the case and you actually need 300A in the building, I would set a 320A meter base and feed these two" main disconnects" from one service, Let the POCO decide how to power it.
That's not a huge job.
If the feeders are only 3 wire, you've got a bigger problem.
steve
 
hillbilly said:
Personally, I don't think that 2 services is compliant or will be allowed.
I would certainly talk to the AHJ before I made any changes.
As iwire posted...The AHJ could allow it per 230.2(C)(3), but if he's like most AHJ's that I "know", I doubt it.
Since there are "two meters and 2 disconnects that are grouped", I assume that the feeders from these "disconnects" to the inside panels are already 4 wire?
If that's the case and you actually need 300A in the building, I would set a 320A meter base and feed these two" main disconnects" from one service, Let the POCO decide how to power it.
That's not a huge job.
If the feeders are only 3 wire, you've got a bigger problem.
steve[/QUOTE

The panels are both 4 wire and i am thinking we will likely be changing this service to one meter and re running wires from meter to transformer.Not cheap at this point but its all on the owner.The meters now are both fed from there own pvc back to transformer 1 1/2 so likely will be running new conduit and wires to supply 300.Will be finding out shortly what the ahj has to say.Prints have yet to be updated and i am sure they will deal with this.
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I don't see enough of what you're describing to assume anything. In any case of course you'll go through the AHJ so the monkey's off your back. Locally, once it has been decided that remodeling is past a certain point various rules kick in; structural, energy, new everything required. This can be more costly than building from the ground up. For residential, the local tax department basically changes a remodel into new construction when the service panel wall comes down. I don't know how it works there.
 
One transformer or two? Message #1 says "transformers", #10 says "transformer". If just one, I'd say this would be one service that happens to have two meters. See exhibit 230.7 in the 2005 Handbook. If it's two transformers it would probably be two services, and it would be up to the AHJ. If it's determined to be two services you could set a gutter, run one new drop or service lateral, then tap to each meter.
 
OK I'm jumping in without researching the code, so rip me a new one if I'm wrong.

Wouldn't the two panels be fed by "feeders" and not "services" since they both have a disconnect outside. Therefore the building will not have 2 services.
 
jim sutton said:
OK I'm jumping in without researching the code, so rip me a new one if I'm wrong.

Wouldn't the two panels be fed by "feeders" and not "services" since they both have a disconnect outside. Therefore the building will not have 2 services.
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Yes both panels are actually fine.What is at question is whats on the outside wall.There i have meter and a 150 amp disconnect and conduit from transformer to meter and conduit from disconnect to sub panel.I have 2 of these that do not join together other than for ground rods.Each one is a service by itself and was fine while this was treated as 2 offices.With seperating wall removed i have 2 services for 1 office.This is my opinion,the ahj might see it differant.POCO would not likely see any change in load.They both are served from same transformer but they run in seperate conduits.They are grouped together.Is this one service or two ?
 
Jim you said you have one transformer feeding this building, the layout is still unclear to me.

However what makes you believe you have two services?

The number of meters or number of disconnects does not determine the number of services the building is fed from.

Read 230.2 carefully paying close attention to the second sentence than take a look at 230.40 Exception 2
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Yes both panels are actually fine.What is at question is whats on the outside wall.There i have meter and a 150 amp disconnect and conduit from transformer to meter and conduit from disconnect to sub panel.I have 2 of these that do not join together other than for ground rods.Each one is a service by itself and was fine while this was treated as 2 offices.With seperating wall removed i have 2 services for 1 office.This is my opinion,the ahj might see it differant.POCO would not likely see any change in load.They both are served from same transformer but they run in seperate conduits.They are grouped together.Is this one service or two ?
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If both of these 150A disconnects are grouped (and existing) then I think you are OK??

If they are seperated there are other issues

Charlie
 
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