2 pole GFIC?

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jmshiller

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I have had to wire a pool motor, 240 volt and requiring a GFIC. The sub panel I am using does not have a neutral for the 2 pole 20 amp GFIC breaker and the pool mtr is 240 volt. Do I need to introduce a neutral for compliance?
 
You do not need a neutral connected to the load side of the device.

Line side is a little more questionable, but I think you do need a neutral connected to the line side for it to work properly.

There is a fairly current thread on this topic and from what is said there, it is not all that clear. A schematic of a Square D GFCI posted in that thread shows the test button will not work without the incoming neutral, but we don't know if any protection is lost should there be no incoming neutral.

I will try to post a link to that other thread.
 
kwired said:
You do not need a neutral connected to the load side of the device.

Line side is a little more questionable, but I think you do need a neutral connected to the line side for it to work properly.

There is a fairly current thread on this topic and from what is said there, it is not all that clear. A schematic of a Square D GFCI posted in that thread shows the test button will not work without the incoming neutral, but we don't know if any protection is lost should there be no incoming neutral.

I will try to post a link to that other thread.
Click to expand...

I thought that you must have a neutral for a GFCI to work.
 
You only need the line side neutral. You don't need the load side. But you must connect the "pigtail" from the GFCI to the nuetral bar, which of course needs the line neutral connected to it.

Edit: from Kwire's post....it's not that the test button won't work without the line neutral, it's that the GFCI won't even set/close without the line neutral.
 
You need the line side neutral which at a minimum would have to be sized based on Table 250.122.
But do you really need the GFCI? If this is pump is 1.5 HP at 240 volt or more it would be allowed to use larger than a 20 amp breaker and be compliant with 680.21(C).
 
Little Bill said:
You only need the line side neutral. You don't need the load side. But you must connect the "pigtail" from the GFCI to the nuetral bar, which of course needs the line neutral connected to it.

Edit: from Kwire's post....it's not that the test button won't work without the line neutral, it's that the GFCI won't even set/close without the line neutral.
Click to expand...
I wish I could find the other thread on this topic I mentioned, so far I haven't found it. My opinion in that thread was like yours, the neutral must be there for it to work properly, but some other info brought up in that thread may suggest it possibly isn't needed. My mentioning the schematic posted on Square D documents shows that the function of the test button definitely needs the neutral as the test resistor is connected from one of the lines to the neutral. But that doesn't mean all others are designed the same way.
 
2 pole GFIC

2 pole GFIC

I appreciate the input, I read somewhere that the 2p GFIC is operable w/o the neutral. The sub is a 2 circuit for the breaker only, I can run the neutral w/o much trouble.
 
jmshiller said:
I appreciate the input, I read somewhere that the 2p GFIC is operable w/o the neutral. The sub is a 2 circuit for the breaker only, I can run the neutral w/o much trouble.
Click to expand...
Bob is correct and has a good fix assuming everything in the panel needs gfci, but if it is conduit and a neutral is easily pulled then that is what I would do.
 
What brand panel is this? I thought SquareD made two different types of 2 pole GFCI's -- one that requires the line side neutral and one that does not (and the one that doesn't won't allow a load side neutral either).

Not sure everyone makes them this way or if they just make the line/load neutral optional. I doesn't have to be required (the TEST button can connect to the opposite line pole to cause a current leak).
 
suemarkp said:
What brand panel is this? I thought SquareD made two different types of 2 pole GFCI's -- one that requires the line side neutral and one that does not (and the one that doesn't won't allow a load side neutral either).

Not sure everyone makes them this way or if they just make the line/load neutral optional. I doesn't have to be required (the TEST button can connect to the opposite line pole to cause a current leak).
Click to expand...

All I find in their catalog is two types, QO and Homeline.

I see they have a three pole GFCI also, but never have seen one in the wild.
 
kwired said:
I wish I could find the other thread on this topic I mentioned, so far I haven't found it. My opinion in that thread was like yours, the neutral must be there for it to work properly, but some other info brought up in that thread may suggest it possibly isn't needed. My mentioning the schematic posted on Square D documents shows that the function of the test button definitely needs the neutral as the test resistor is connected from one of the lines to the neutral. But that doesn't mean all others are designed the same way.
Click to expand...

I've wired a few hot tubs lately and they (the disconnect mfg) said there had to be a line side neutral and the GFCI "pigtail" had to land on the neutral bar.

Tell you what, I'm doing a job now that includes wiring a hot tub. When I get everything finished, I will leave off the "pigtail" from the GFCI and see if it will close. I should be ready to connect the disconnect by Wednesday.
It is a C/H spa disconnect with a 50A GFCI, and is the same GFCI that you would get if you just bought a stand alone GFCI.
 
suemarkp said:
I thought SquareD made two different types of 2 pole GFCI's -- one that requires the line side neutral and one that does not (and the one that doesn't won't allow a load side neutral either).
Click to expand...

All Square D GFCI breakers require a line side neutral connection for the test circuit.
All of their GFCI breakers have provisions for load side neutral except for the 2-Pole 60A version which is for 2-wire 240V loads only.
 
jim dungar said:
All Square D GFCI breakers require a line side neutral connection for the test circuit.
All of their GFCI breakers have provisions for load side neutral except for the 2-Pole 60A version which is for 2-wire 240V loads only.
Click to expand...

Is it really just for the test button or is it required to power the electronics?
 
iwire said:
Is it really just for the test button or is it required to power the electronics?
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I have never been told, by those in the know, about anything except the test.
I have never tried to close a 2-pole GFCI breaker that had an open line side neutral.
 
2pGFIC

2pGFIC

iwire said:
In that case why not just locate the GFCI at the source of the run?
Click to expand...
The reason I didn't use the existing Main panel is that its an old CH panel and the CH220GFIC breaker would not fit. I installed the sub and because it was only for the 240 load did not run a neutral. Appreciate all the input but will install a neutral.
 
Little Bill said:
I've wired a few hot tubs lately and they (the disconnect mfg) said there had to be a line side neutral and the GFCI "pigtail" had to land on the neutral bar.

Tell you what, I'm doing a job now that includes wiring a hot tub. When I get everything finished, I will leave off the "pigtail" from the GFCI and see if it will close. I should be ready to connect the disconnect by Wednesday.
It is a C/H spa disconnect with a 50A GFCI, and is the same GFCI that you would get if you just bought a stand alone GFCI.
Click to expand...

Even if it would close, you need to check to see if the electronics still work and protection is provided. Introduce some load that doesn't have a return through the breaker and see if it trips.
 
kwired said:
Even if it would close, you need to check to see if the electronics still work and protection is provided. Introduce some load that doesn't have a return through the breaker and see if it trips.
Click to expand...

Do you mean some 120V load?
IMPO, if the GFCI closes it should work. But I don't think it's going to close, but we'll see.
 
kwired said:
Even if it would close, you need to check to see if the electronics still work and protection is provided. Introduce some load that doesn't have a return through the breaker and see if it trips.
Click to expand...

I have never heard of someone, defeating a GFCI breaker simply by removing the line side neutral, have you? If it worked how many people would do it to prevent 'nuisance trips'?
 
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