2 SABC's as a multiwire circuit

[Dennis Alwon]

True, but in CT almost every home is wired with a dedicated circuit to the dinning room.

In the bigger homes many dining areas have buffet tables and they use a lot of electric skillets, hot plates, warmers etc. We have always kept the dining room separate-- a tremendous overkill in most cases

 

[mbrooke]

In the bigger homes many dining areas have buffet tables and they use a lot of electric skillets, hot plates, warmers etc. We have always kept the dining room separate-- a tremendous overkill in most cases

Large houses I would pull the extra run, but for condos and budget homes I would always tap off the SABC. Of course with AFCIs that is changing, although in the 2017 it looks like that point will be mute since everything will need AFCI protection.

BTW, are you aware of anyone who makes anyone who makes a 2 pole AFCI and how much it costs? I have a huge preference for MWBCs.

 

[JFletcher]

Large houses I would pull the extra run, but for condos and budget homes I would always tap off the SABC. Of course with AFCIs that is changing, although in the 2017 it looks like that point will be mute since everything will need AFCI protection.

BTW, are you aware of anyone who makes anyone who makes a 2 pole AFCI and how much it costs? I have a huge preference for MWBCs.

Lots of mfg make 2p AFCI, and they are a bit cheaper than 2 single pole AFCI.

 

[mbrooke]

Lots of mfg make 2p AFCI, and they are a bit cheaper than 2 single pole AFCI.

I know Siemens makes a 2 pole and GE has no GFP letting you do two with a handle tie, but what about a dual function breaker?

 

[JFletcher]

I know Siemens makes a 2 pole and GE has no GFP letting you do two with a handle tie, but what about a dual function breaker?

We mostly deal with Square-D. If you mean GFCI/ AFCI 2p breakers, Im not aware of any (not saying they dont exist). I'd rather go GFCI receptacle than a breaker.

My only concern with MWBC on an AFCI breaker is if you cross up neutrals, you're gonna have 4 dead circuits vs 2.

 

[mbrooke]

We mostly deal with Square-D. If you mean GFCI/ AFCI 2p breakers, Im not aware of any (not saying they dont exist). I'd rather go GFCI receptacle than a breaker.

My only concern with MWBC on an AFCI breaker is if you cross up neutrals, you're gonna have 4 dead circuits vs 2.

GFCI/AFCI, hopefully that day will come soon.

 

[jaylectricity]

Large houses I would pull the extra run, but for condos and budget homes I would always tap off the SABC. Of course with AFCIs that is changing, although in the 2017 it looks like that point will be mute since everything will need AFCI protection.

It's OK to just run two circuits, one afci that also feeds the dining room and the other just in the kitchen. Then you don't have to run a 12-2 and a 12-3, use a $10 2P breaker and and arc-fault. You just run 2 12-2 and one $5 breaker and an arc-fault.

 

[cal1947]

Cal1947

Cal1947

Thanks, guys. I'm relieved, really.

Yep, I learned the need for the handle tie pretty quick.
That was, for once, a good recent addition to the NEC.
A time or two, while working in an old panel, I got zapped by a neutral that I've just disconnected from the busbar, because it carried a current from the other half of the MWBC. No handle tie was to be found on those breakers.

Then again, even for the circuits that weren't meant to be MWBC's, I've come across 'stolen neutrals', used by a completely different circuit. One can only hope that the hot conductors for those two circuits are on different phases...
My recent crazy "old work" find was the jacket of the AC cable used for the neutral.. Lots of crazy folks out there, never know what surprises you'll find. That's why I love our trade.
That, or maybe because I'm new to it

you must install a 2 pole arcfault breaker if they make one for your panel

 

[JFletcher]

GFCI/AFCI, hopefully that day will come soon.

Hopefully not in the NEC. Tho I imagine two good thing might come from it; more service calls to replace breakers/reset GFI, and less HO putting a ton of crap in front of or around panels.

 

[GoldDigger]

....Tho I imagine two good thing might come from it; more service calls to replace breakers/reset GFI, and less HO putting a ton of crap in front of or around panels the second time around.

FIFY :angel:

 

[mbrooke]

Hopefully not in the NEC. Tho I imagine two good thing might come from it; more service calls to replace breakers/reset GFI, and less HO putting a ton of crap in front of or around panels.

Theres that :lol: But knowing the NFPA getting AFCIs booted is wishful thinking at best.

 

[kwired]

Lots of mfg make 2p AFCI, and they are a bit cheaper than 2 single pole AFCI.

Lots of mfg? There is only four of them in the first place making North American marketed equipment. Some have more then one line such as Schneider's QO and Homeline or Eaton's CH and BR series. That leaves us with Siemens and GE as the other two manufacturers. Any other panel lines you used to see are no longer being made or were eventually absorbed by one of these four.

GFCI/AFCI, hopefully that day will come soon.

Came a long time ago with Schneider, not sure about the others. Look up products QO120DF or HOM120DF

 

[JFletcher]

Lots of mfg? There is only four of them in the first place making North American marketed equipment. Some have more then one line such as Schneider's QO and Homeline or Eaton's CH and BR series. That leaves us with Siemens and GE as the other two manufacturers. Any other panel lines you used to see are no longer being made or were eventually absorbed by one of these four.


Came a long time ago with Schneider, not sure about the others. Look up products QO120DF or HOM120DF

I was looking at the lines/styles moreso than the mfg. You are correct. Newly installed resi panels tho, are there any mfg who dont offer 2p AFCI breakers to go with them? The two breakers you listed are CAFCI but not 2 pole.

I wasnt aware until now that Schneider makes Square-D; not really familiar with who acquired what brands when - would you happen to have a link to a comprehensive source of information on that topic?

 

[kwired]

I was looking at the lines/styles moreso than the mfg. You are correct. Newly installed resi panels tho, are there any mfg who dont offer 2p AFCI breakers to go with them? The two breakers you listed are CAFCI but not 2 pole.

I wasnt aware until now that Schneider makes Square-D; not really familiar with who acquired what brands when - would you happen to have a link to a comprehensive source of information on that topic?

No, but off top of my head some of the past major players in NEMA type equipment commonly used for homes and light commercial lines:

Square D and GE have pretty much always had one line QO and THQ series, with Square D adding the Homeline series as a competetive line with many other similar design series in the late 80's or early 90's. Schneider acquired Square D but it is still sort of a separate sub division, but is getting the Schneider name put on more products in recent years.

Eaton had Cutler Hammer a long time ago, but Cutler Hammer sort of remained a separate sub division as well and the primary name on their products for some time

Eaton acquired Westinghouse and particularly for this discussion their BR series panels/breakers. It is still called the BR series but the Westinghouse name and any other names that Westinghouse had taken over previously are all still considered part of that BR series. Bryant was in that at some time and maybe another couple names.

Siemens acquired what had been know in past as Gould/ITE, and AFAIK Murray still exists but is a part of Siemens. I Believe former names of Challenger and Crouse-Hinds were at one time absorbed into Murray. I believe Siemens Q series breakers are suitable replacements for all panels those past companies that are now under Siemens.

 

[JFletcher]

No, but off top of my head some of the past major players in NEMA type equipment commonly used for homes and light commercial lines:

Square D and GE have pretty much always had one line QO and THQ series, with Square D adding the Homeline series as a competetive line with many other similar design series in the late 80's or early 90's. Schneider acquired Square D but it is still sort of a separate sub division, but is getting the Schneider name put on more products in recent years.

Eaton had Cutler Hammer a long time ago, but Cutler Hammer sort of remained a separate sub division as well and the primary name on their products for some time

Eaton acquired Westinghouse and particularly for this discussion their BR series panels/breakers. It is still called the BR series but the Westinghouse name and any other names that Westinghouse had taken over previously are all still considered part of that BR series. Bryant was in that at some time and maybe another couple names.

Siemens acquired what had been know in past as Gould/ITE, and AFAIK Murray still exists but is a part of Siemens. I Believe former names of Challenger and Crouse-Hinds were at one time absorbed into Murray. I believe Siemens Q series breakers are suitable replacements for all panels those past companies that are now under Siemens.

:thumbsup: thank you!