Problem is, you don’t know if it’s bonded correctly. Hence my suggestion to get the poco involved with neighbors having stray voltage also.
2 volts in pool, bond wire, grounding rods
- Thread starter SunTitan
- Start date
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
We know they need to go higher up the ladder. Ours were easy. I called and asked to speak to Rose or Engineering. 40 years of knowing who helped. That and the phone number to call.
It’s odd to me that when main power is disconnected at meter there is still a voltage present in the water. Only when the bonding wire is disconnected from the pool pump and sacrificial zinc bonding lugs that the voltage disappears from the water.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
That is always the case where the source of the voltage is elevated neutral to earth voltage.
The bottom line is that this pool is not properly bonded and even if you remove any neutral to earth voltage, or any other voltage source, the pool is not safe to use.
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
When the main power to your home is shut off but you still have the problem, it eliminates a defect in your home as a source of the problem. But the main breaker only disconnects the 'hot' wires, not the neutral wire from the utility.
If the neutral wire from the utility is at elevated voltage relative to local earth ground, then everything connected to that wire will be at elevated voltage relative to local earth ground. Just like all of the 'safety ground' and 'circuit neutral' wires, the bonding wire is connected to the utility neutral.
Your pool is _supposed_ to be 'bonded', so that every part that a person will come in contact with is maintained at the same voltage. The idea is not to try to make that voltage '0', but to try to make everything the same. Extreme bonding:
There is a flaw in the bonding somewhere, so that the deck and the water are at different voltages, and you are getting shocked from the tiny elevated voltage on the neutral.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
You did not disconnect the neutral conductor when turning off main power. Your voltage is from the service neutral which ultimately has the equipment grounding conductors of your premised connected to it (and from all those connected items) to earth.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
But it really needs to be bonded correctly or when something unusual happens even for a short time it becomes a hazard. And 2 volts is only starting to get to be too much NEV in my experiences you aren't getting POCO to reduce it much less than that unless maybe a dairy farm is involved in the problems it creates. Simple voltage drop on MGN from the primary can cause a volt or two to show up quite often.
If you have an even higher voltage transmission line in the vicinity of the distribution lines or even higher on same poles- you might even see a voltage on the grounded conductors due to capacitance from that transmission line.
Again there is a reason NEC has the bonding rules in art 680. Ideally there should be no voltage but seldom is conditions that perfect.
This is why it is even more common to see electrocutions at boat docks and similar places, hard to do equipotential bonding to a lake compared to a swimming pool. All the GFCI protection you can think of throwing at it won't prevent neutral to earth voltage from occurring nor will the GFCI trip because of NEV being imposed on the EGC,
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Mike Holt had a video of him in his pool that was energized at 120 volts. The connection to the electrical grounding and bonding system was removed and 120 volts connected to the pool bonding system. Not sure if that is still available on his website or not.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
Just an example of a bad EB.........
I was called to a pool where they were feeling a tingle/shock in the pool, but only at one place.
I checked everything that should be checked. Everything checked good everywhere but at one side of the hand rail. Also, I didn't know where they were feeling the shock but turns out it was at the hand rail.
I discovered that one of the rails had deteriorated and there was a potential difference between the two sides of the rail. My fix was to run a jumper from one rail to the other.
This was not a permanent fix. The owner was having a new liner put in and was going to have new hand rail put in and properly bonded.
I was called to a pool where they were feeling a tingle/shock in the pool, but only at one place.
I checked everything that should be checked. Everything checked good everywhere but at one side of the hand rail. Also, I didn't know where they were feeling the shock but turns out it was at the hand rail.
I discovered that one of the rails had deteriorated and there was a potential difference between the two sides of the rail. My fix was to run a jumper from one rail to the other.
This was not a permanent fix. The owner was having a new liner put in and was going to have new hand rail put in and properly bonded.
Fred B
Senior Member
- Location
- Upstate, NY
- Occupation
- Electrician
Can only reiterate what others had stated, need a qualified person to investigate the EB, ASAP and not allow usage until it is corrected.
All indications are that the source is NEV and nothing can be done to eliminate beyond a very short duration if at all, This is a POCO normal condition and unless "proof" of a bad POCO neutral can be provided likely nothing will be even attempted to be done. That 2V present if you were to monitor over the day or days you will see fluctuate depending on time of day or week as total loads on the POCO system change over time. Thus as others said the rules of 680 are not just suggestions but will be deadly if not done correctly.
This issue is also one of the reason many municipalities are now requiring regular or even annual re-inspection of the pool including validation of that the EB is still effective.
All indications are that the source is NEV and nothing can be done to eliminate beyond a very short duration if at all, This is a POCO normal condition and unless "proof" of a bad POCO neutral can be provided likely nothing will be even attempted to be done. That 2V present if you were to monitor over the day or days you will see fluctuate depending on time of day or week as total loads on the POCO system change over time. Thus as others said the rules of 680 are not just suggestions but will be deadly if not done correctly.
This issue is also one of the reason many municipalities are now requiring regular or even annual re-inspection of the pool including validation of that the EB is still effective.
Mystic Pools
Senior Member
- Location
- Park Ridge, NJ
- Occupation
- Swimming Pool Contractor
SunTitan
Please keep us all in the loop of the results/findings.
Please keep us all in the loop of the results/findings.
Fred B
Senior Member
- Location
- Upstate, NY
- Occupation
- Electrician
Between what points are the measurements being taken that gets the disappearing voltage? Unbonded to unbonded source measurement only gives you a "different" same potential and it is not eliminating the shock risk from NEV. A review of 680 bonding requirements will tell you What items need to be bonded and how.
Simply measurement of Voltage should be from bonded to bonded points and if the bonding is correct you will have 0V. Voltage only increases as a result of difference of potential between points. For instance measure voltage at a panel, if both test probes are on "A" phase it will read 0 Volts, but "A" phase to "B" phase you will get 240V, a difference of potential.
SunTitan
Member
- Location
- Monroe, ga
- Occupation
- Construction Risk Director
Wow! You folks are all incredible - knowledgeable and helpful. So many forums don't have that, so thank you. Here is the update:
EMC came out on 6/17/25. I was out of town over father day weekend so come Monday I was all over them. The common theme I've gotten here is that even if there is an EMC problem, a properly bonded pool and water should not allow the shock. EMC confirmed the voltage and pulled the Neutrals from my house and a few neighbors confirming that their is a Neutral issue on their end. They are currently out today running some planned drops in an attempt to locate it. The Engineer also brough with him some copper wire which he connected from the base lug of the handrail to the base lug of the ladder - no voltage, so he claimed this meant that the bond was good, but there was still voltage in the water. He then took that same #6 wire, attached the the handrail and ladder lugs and dipped it into the pool - BOOM - no voltage. He replicated the test with a copper plate attached to #6 that he dropped into the pool with the other end on the handrail lug and voltage was still gone. So his determination is that the water is not bonded - we also have fiberglass handrails and ladder.
I got pictures of the build from the build manager and see that they used a perma-cast water bonding system, but it does not appear to be installed according to manufacturer spec - I may be wrong. I've attached a photo of the install and the instructions, maybe you can tell me if this is proper.
EMC will continue to look for the source of the neutral issue - but I have asked the pool builder (nicely) to bring a metal handrail and ladder to see if that will complete the water bond. He's a little hesitant, but if that perma-cast is not proper, I will lean a little heavier and he will get me what I ask for. I was glad to at least get SOMETHING figured out.
EMC came out on 6/17/25. I was out of town over father day weekend so come Monday I was all over them. The common theme I've gotten here is that even if there is an EMC problem, a properly bonded pool and water should not allow the shock. EMC confirmed the voltage and pulled the Neutrals from my house and a few neighbors confirming that their is a Neutral issue on their end. They are currently out today running some planned drops in an attempt to locate it. The Engineer also brough with him some copper wire which he connected from the base lug of the handrail to the base lug of the ladder - no voltage, so he claimed this meant that the bond was good, but there was still voltage in the water. He then took that same #6 wire, attached the the handrail and ladder lugs and dipped it into the pool - BOOM - no voltage. He replicated the test with a copper plate attached to #6 that he dropped into the pool with the other end on the handrail lug and voltage was still gone. So his determination is that the water is not bonded - we also have fiberglass handrails and ladder.
I got pictures of the build from the build manager and see that they used a perma-cast water bonding system, but it does not appear to be installed according to manufacturer spec - I may be wrong. I've attached a photo of the install and the instructions, maybe you can tell me if this is proper.
EMC will continue to look for the source of the neutral issue - but I have asked the pool builder (nicely) to bring a metal handrail and ladder to see if that will complete the water bond. He's a little hesitant, but if that perma-cast is not proper, I will lean a little heavier and he will get me what I ask for. I was glad to at least get SOMETHING figured out.
SunTitan
Member
- Location
- Monroe, ga
- Occupation
- Construction Risk Director
Same pool builder - Was your electrician "Big Deal Electric"?
SunTitan
Member
- Location
- Monroe, ga
- Occupation
- Construction Risk Director
Replying to myself here, but the instruction also say in bold DO NOT bury the pool bond fitting.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
I don't know what burying the bond fitting will do, but with all the pools I have done, the fitting is placed in a horizontal piece from the tee, above ground. Looks like they should have put in a short piece of PVC before the 90 deg elbow so the fitting could be above ground.
Fred B
Senior Member
- Location
- Upstate, NY
- Occupation
- Electrician
From my experience nothing new there. Yet to find a pool installer that understands EB, and its real function and safety issues if not done correctly.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
I would imagine you want to see the bond and not need to search for it.
Mystic Pools
Senior Member
- Location
- Park Ridge, NJ
- Occupation
- Swimming Pool Contractor
Oh no. Bad location for that water bond. It's on the suction side of the pump and at some point, the seal may/will be compromised, and the pump will draw air and run like S**T. And you can't access easily being buried.
I always put them on the discharge side of the filter. I use a Tee 2x2 x1". I glue a short 1" nipple on the Bull side of the Tee with a male adapter. This way the actual probe is not directly in line with the water flow when threaded in.
I point it straight up otherwise it would have to be removed every season when the pool is winterized.
I always put them on the discharge side of the filter. I use a Tee 2x2 x1". I glue a short 1" nipple on the Bull side of the Tee with a male adapter. This way the actual probe is not directly in line with the water flow when threaded in.
I point it straight up otherwise it would have to be removed every season when the pool is winterized.