2 Wire GFCI Receptacles

Status
Not open for further replies.

threefie

Member
Location
United States
Occupation
Retired Electrician
I have had some bad experiences with 2 wire circuits and GFCI receptacles. More specifically, when installing a GFCI receptacle on a 2 wire system and protecting other receptacles / appliances from the load side of that receptacle. If you mistakenly hook up the ground wire from that outlet downstream, you will receive a shock if you touch the grounding conductor...correct? Could you please explain this phenomenon?
 
I'm curious how you have a ground wire that comes from an outlet downstream 🤔

Next, I'm curious how you can accidentally hook up a ground wire

Next, I'm curious which end you would get the shock at

Next, I'm curious if you have all the neutrals and hots connected before you connect the ground

🤔🤔🤔
 
I am confused also. You either have a equipment grounding conductor or you don't. When you say 2 wire circuit it means no equipment grounding conductor.

BTW, are you a retired electrician?
 
Such entertaining sarcastic wit 🙂!

In answer to James L., I said “mistakenly“ not accidentally. I figure if you are receiving a shock downstream, it must be due to a mistake. I am speaking of feeding the line side of a GFCI receptacle with a 2 wire cable with no grounding conductor. Then “mistakenly” connecting the grounding wire in a 3 wire cable to the load side of the GFCI to feed outlets downstream. At this point, if you touched the yoke on a downstream receptacle, you received a shock. Eliminating this connection corrects the problem. I experienced this decades ago and am simply asking the question as to why this occurs. Is it due to induction from the internal CT’s or what? And yes, all the neutrals and hots were made up before and in a de energized condition.

In answer to Mr. Alwon’s question, I agree that you do not actually have an equipment ground in a 2 wire system. And I have already answered “yes“ to the question as to whether I am a retired electrician. I assume you may be implying that I must be incompetent for asking such a question. Perhaps it seems elementary to you but I venture to say other folks would like to see your answer, as well.
 
None of your posts mentioned you were retired other than the one answering back to Dennis, but when you say mistakenly connected the ground wire and got shocked, under normal conditions, this would not happen unless a piece of equipment plugged into the receptacle was shorted to ground. If that equipment is being fed from the gfi, it should trip, unless you connected the ground to the neutral terminal too, in which it would defeat the GFI protection if sufficiently insulated, such as mounted on a piece of dry wood.
 
Such entertaining sarcastic wit 🙂!

In answer to James L., I said “mistakenly“ not accidentally. I figure if you are receiving a shock downstream, it must be due to a mistake. I am speaking of feeding the line side of a GFCI receptacle with a 2 wire cable with no grounding conductor. Then “mistakenly” connecting the grounding wire in a 3 wire cable to the load side of the GFCI to feed outlets downstream. At this point, if you touched the yoke on a downstream receptacle, you received a shock. Eliminating this connection corrects the problem. I experienced this decades ago and am simply asking the question as to why this occurs. Is it due to induction from the internal CT’s or what? And yes, all the neutrals and hots were made up before and in a de energized condition.

In answer to Mr. Alwon’s question, I agree that you do not actually have an equipment ground in a 2 wire system. And I have already answered “yes“ to the question as to whether I am a retired electrician. I assume you may be implying that I must be incompetent for asking such a question. Perhaps it seems elementary to you but I venture to say other folks would like to see your answer, as well.

Btw, retired does not tell of your occupation.

No I asked because you didn't fill out your profile as one should and thought with the confusing question you may not have been an electrician. We get a lot of home owners and we are not allowed to offer answer fo diy work.

So you have an old 2 wire circuit and you added a 12/2 or 14/2 with ground to fed other receptacles. Is this correct?

I don't believe you can wire the equipment grounding conductor to the receptacle even if it is fed thru a gfci. The equipment grounding conductor must not be connected. Now, why is there current on the equipment grounding conductor? I have no idea unless the conductor is touching another wire
 
None of your posts mentioned you were retired other than the one answering back to Dennis, but when you say mistakenly connected the ground wire and got shocked, under normal conditions, this would not happen unless a piece of equipment plugged into the receptacle was shorted to ground. If that equipment is being fed from the gfi, it should trip, unless you connected the ground to the neutral terminal too, in which it would defeat the GFI protection if sufficiently insulated, such as mounted on a piece of dry wood.

I thought I had said yes to a previous inquiry on a different question. The moderator threatened to remove my post if I didn’t verify that I was.

Well, I know I have had this happen in the past and it was not my imagination. The situation appeared again recently on the load side of a 3 wire grounded system. Upon checking, there was a break in the grounding conductor and it energized the frame of a dishwasher circuit. I checked it with a wiggy. So, I don’t know what to think.
 
You are not allowed to connect the EGC when using 12/2 or 14/2 downstream of a GFCI.
See 406. 4 D. You must mark the downstream receptacle "GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground"
The this section states, An EGC shall not be connected between the grounding type receptacles
 
Such entertaining sarcastic wit 🙂!

In answer to James L., I said “mistakenly“ not accidentally.
😓 I mistakenly typed accidentally 😅😅

Sure, could be induction. EMF, ghost voltage, etc.

But if you grab a yoke and get shocked, you more than likely have some kind of fault.

It's entirely possible that the metal box with the 2-wire in it was actually grounded from behind, but cut off somewhere, and when you screw the device in it's got a long lead of wire running off somewhere.

I actually had that, where someone had added grounding to all the metal boxes in a house, and connected it to a water line in the kitchen. Someone else came across and hijacked that ground wire and use it as a neutral buy pigtailing off of a switch box that had only a switch loop. Someone else apparently came by and "fixed" the outlet the head lost its bootleg neutral, but left that bootleg neutral hooked up. There was real voltage on those boxes, and thefore the yokes.
 
Well he did have retired under his name but "retired from what?" That is where I was coming from
Btw, retired does not tell of your occupation.

No I asked because you didn't fill out your profile as one should and thought with the confusing question you may not have been an electrician. We get a lot of home owners and we are not allowed to offer answer fo diy work.

So you have an old 2 wire circuit and you added a 12/2 or 14/2 with ground to fed other receptacles. Is this correct?

I don't believe you can wire the equipment grounding conductor to the receptacle even if it is fed thru a gfci. The equipment grounding conductor must not be connected. Now, why is there current on the equipment grounding conductor? I have no idea unless the conductor is touching another wire

Okay, thanks. I guess I didn’t read the rules well enough. Yes, you understand what I was asking. And most instruction sheets in the GFCI receptacle packaging box do say to only hook up the grounding conductor if there is one. I am wondering if this is why they instruct you thusly...
 
😓 I mistakenly typed accidentally 😅😅

Sure, could be induction. EMF, ghost voltage, etc.

But if you grab a yoke and get shocked, you more than likely have some kind of fault.

It's entirely possible that the metal box with the 2-wire in it was actually grounded from behind, but cut off somewhere, and when you screw the device in it's got a long lead of wire running off somewhere.

I actually had that, where someone had added grounding to all the metal boxes in a house, and connected it to a water line in the kitchen. Someone else came across and hijacked that ground wire and use it as a neutral buy pigtailing off of a switch box that had only a switch loop. Someone else apparently came by and "fixed" the outlet the head lost its bootleg neutral, but left that bootleg neutral hooked up. There was real voltage on those boxes, and thefore the yokes.

Thanks for that 🙂! Well, I ran across a similar situation recently where a dishwasher circuit was fed off the load side of a GFCI receptacle. It was a 3 wire circuit on both sides of the outlet but the frame of the dishwasher was hot. Upon further checking, the equipment ground on the line side had a break in it and I assume this was the cause. Someone else suggested it might be static but I checked it with a wiggy.
 
You are not allowed to connect the EGC when using 12/2 or 14/2 downstream of a GFCI.
See 406. 4 D. You must mark the downstream receptacle "GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground"
The this section states, An EGC shall not be connected between the grounding type receptacles

Thanks for that quote. And is this why the NEC requires this...because there is a shock hazard?
 
Thank you. I believe you have answered my question perfectly! I actually remember seeing that code provision in the past but alas, in my old age had forgotten it 😄. Now I know why it is in there. But I knew I hadn’t imagined receiving a shock. Have a nice day, sir!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top