2 wire system

[arrail.thomas]

I was wanting to know can you use a 3 prong Receptacle . by replacing a 2 wire Recpteplace If you put in a non Ground G F C I and labeled Receptacles No ground protected by ground fault interrupter ? I am Confused inthe Code book it states onething then another please Help ?

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[david luchini]

I was wanting to know can you use a 3 prong Receptacle . by replacing a 2 wire Recpteplace If you put in a non Ground G F C I and labeled Receptacles No ground protected by ground fault interrupter ? I am Confused inthe Code book it states onething then another please Help ?

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

You can replace a non-grounding receptacle with a GFCI type receptacle (NEC 406(D)(2)(b))
or with a grounding-type receptacle supplied through a ground fault circuit interrupter (NEC 406(D)(2)(c))

 

[jumper]

Running a separate/new EGC is an option also. See 250.130(C).

 

[ramsy]

Running a separate/new EGC is an option also. See 250.130(C).

Either way, since 2011 the circuit must also be AFCI protected per NEC 406(D)(4)

 

[arrail.thomas]

Thank you for the understanding

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[arrail.thomas]

What i plan on doing is replacing the receptacles and labeling all new recptacles with 3 prong . At the beging of the circuit replace breakers with dual Afci /Gfci breakers. This will solve 6 of my problems with the INSPECTOR

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[ramsy]

Some local exceptions don't require permits for wall-plug replacements, but Dual Functions without inspector backup is risky.

Found nasty review on Yelp, after Dual-function outlet tripped on 2-wire building. Another contractor told client it never belonged there.

NEC 406.4(D)(2) & (3) was clearly explained "typewritten" on that invoice. Angry client didn't care. I got screwed with no permit backing me up.

AFCI's breakers may be preferred, since people want breaker trouble fixed by a professional, rather than gardeners, or carpenter friends.

Most customers understand GFCI outlets, but are being tempted to solve Dual-Function AFCI-outlet issues with a standard plug.

 

[arrail.thomas]

So here is what im about to do. The 2 wire system needs the lights and receptacles to be AFCI protected. So in order to accommodate changing the plugs to three prongs these have be protected by a GFCI correct. So my plan is to jump ahead of the circuit and just supply a dual breaker to accommodate the code. This i believe will eliminate installing a bunch of GFCI receptacles or do i need to separate the two. AFCI for the circuit and GFCI receptacle for the beginning of the plug(which is allow on one circuit after observation). I just think three dual breaker would be easier to do and diagnose off something was wrong later.???????

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[user 100]

So here is what im about to do. The 2 wire system needs the lights and receptacles to be AFCI protected. So in order to accommodate changing the plugs to three prongs these have be protected by a GFCI correct. So my plan is to jump ahead of the circuit and just supply a dual breaker to accommodate the code. This i believe will eliminate installing a bunch of GFCI receptacles or do i need to separate the two. AFCI for the circuit and GFCI receptacle for the beginning of the plug(which is allow on one circuit after observation). I just think three dual breaker would be easier to do and diagnose off something was wrong later.???????

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

You are correct- in order to swap out the legacy 2w devices to 3w, you have to gfci (or do what jumper mentioned above)

Yes, a dual function afci/gfci breaker will satisfy both the 406.4(D)(2)(C) gfci option and the 406.4(D)(4) afci requirement regarding replacing 2w recs w/ 3wire. This is a good idea b/c of the layout of many old houses- there may not be a "1st" rec. They had a habit years ago about hitting the ceiling boxes 1st, then feeding recs from there- think spidering out, hub and spoke scheme etc.

ETA- Don't (sigh....) forget about 250.114......

 

[Andy Delle]

Why AFCI?

Why AFCI?

AFAIK, AFCI is not retroactive unless a new circuit is pulled from the panel. So why not just install replacement 2 wire receptacles and be done with it? I would also think replacing a 2w with a 3w GFCI would also avoid the AFCI requirement.

 

[GoldDigger]

AFAIK, AFCI is not retroactive unless a new circuit is pulled from the panel. So why not just install replacement 2 wire receptacles and be done with it? I would also think replacing a 2w with a 3w GFCI would also avoid the AFCI requirement.

On the contrary, in recent Code cycles AFCI is required if a circuit is extended to a new device or the wiring of an existing segment is extended more than 6'.
This can include just replacing a receptacle with a new one.

 

[mopowr steve]

On the contrary, in recent Code cycles AFCI is required if a circuit is extended to a new device or the wiring of an existing segment is extended more than 6'.
This can include just replacing a receptacle with a new one.

where does it say "just replacing a receptacle with a new one" come from?

Here's a situltion that I'm staring at right now, I want to quote replacement of some 1950's two wire receptacles for a customer with grounding type receptacles on a 2wire circuit that also happens to be part of a MWBC. So I go look for 2pole dual function breakers to solve the dilema, They don't exist. so hows this supposed to work needing afci and gfci protection where it is impractical to place afci receptacles behind furniture and using a 2pole gfci.

 

[MAC702]

where does it say "just replacing a receptacle with a new one" come from?

Agreed. I don't see that.

 

[user 100]

where does it say "just replacing a receptacle with a new one" come from?.

Agreed. I don't see that.

GoldDigger speaks the truth-

From the 2014 and 2017

406.4(D)(4)

Where a receptacle outlet is lkocated in any areas specified in 210.12(A) or (B), a replacement recptacle at this outlet shall be one of the following:

(1) A listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter receptacle.

(2) A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter type receptacle.

(3) A receptacle protected by a listed combination type arc-fault circuit interrupter type circuit breaker.

 

[MAC702]

Ah, thank you.

 

[al hildenbrand]

where does it say "just replacing a receptacle with a new one" come from?

The AFCI requirement comes from 2014 NEC, and later, 406.4(D) Replacements. All of 406.4(D) that applies to your specific situation. AFCI is in 406.4(D)(4). Minnesota has been requiring it since the 2014 NEC went into affect over three years ago.

Here's a situltion that I'm staring at right now, I want to quote replacement of some 1950's two wire receptacles for a customer with grounding type receptacles on a 2wire circuit that also happens to be part of a MWBC. So I go look for 2pole dual function breakers to solve the dilema, They don't exist. so hows this supposed to work needing afci and gfci protection where it is impractical to place afci receptacles behind furniture and using a 2pole gfci.

The work-around is to use dual function AFCI / GFCI receptacles. Identify the 120 volt two wire branch circuit split point from the MWBC and use the dual function AFCI / GFCI receptacles as upstream in the two wire segments as possible. Depending upon the original electrician's circuit routing, it may be necessary to use more than one dual function AFCI / GFCI receptacle to pick up orphans.

 

[mopowr steve]

So I'm not sitting on the code book now but Aren't those AFCI/GFCI receptacles supposed to be readily accessible also? How do you comply with that when there's furniture setting in front of them?

 

[GoldDigger]

So I'm not sitting on the code book now but Aren't those AFCI/GFCI receptacles supposed to be readily accessible also? How do you comply with that when there's furniture setting in front of them?

As long as it is moveable (without bringing in a couple of hefty movers!) there is general acceptance that furniture in front of the receptacle does not prevent it from being readily accessible. (Readily accessible is in some ways less restrictive than accessible, surprisingly enough.)

 

[George Stolz]

where does it say "just replacing a receptacle with a new one" come from?

Here's a situltion that I'm staring at right now, I want to quote replacement of some 1950's two wire receptacles for a customer with grounding type receptacles on a 2wire circuit that also happens to be part of a MWBC. So I go look for 2pole dual function breakers to solve the dilema, They don't exist. so hows this supposed to work needing afci and gfci protection where it is impractical to place afci receptacles behind furniture and using a 2pole gfci.

In the immortal words of John McClane, after hurling a body on a chair from Nakatomi Tower, “Welcome to the party, pal!”

It’s the dumbest code change in an illustrious list of dumb code changes.

 

[George Stolz]

So I'm not sitting on the code book now but Aren't those AFCI/GFCI receptacles supposed to be readily accessible also? How do you comply with that when there's furniture setting in front of them?

Or any of the number of amazing panel locations that have sprouted over the last 100 years, obsolete panels, boxes barely deep enough for a duplex holding its breath...