20 amp AFCI breaker trips on laundry circuit

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Ohms law said:
First of all I'm not going to buy a AFCI receptacle and second we don't use them. If you read my original post I stated that I used a different AFCI breaker and ran 12-2 romex across the ground with a receptacle at the other end to determine if it was the wire. This was temporary. It still tripped. I will add since i did not earlier, I check terminals at both ends.

I just wanted to know if anyone else has had this issue.
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Ohms law said:
kwired said:
How does AHJ define "finished". My washer and dryer are in what is essentially a closet. I consider the interior of this closet to be finished, after all it is drywalled and painted has ceramic tile on the floor and even has casing trim on the door and base trim at the floor, but I also find the space far from being similar to a living room, bedroom, dining room, etc.

The room is a small laundry room with a shelf dedicated to the laundry units. Our AHJ considers a room to be finished is when the floor and ceiling are finished.
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Then it doesn't look like you have any choice but to have the customer change the washing machine. The washer tripping the AFCI is not your responsibility. You have done your responsibility and have installed AFCI to pass inspection.
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Ohms law said:
I'm assuming a surge trap is similar to a whole house surge protector, obviously two different items but accomplish the same thing. We do offer home owners a whole house surge protector for $580.00. The brand we use is Square D, the price includeds the device plus installation.
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Just a simple surge trap like this for under $10 should fix the problem?

http://www.belkin.com/us/BSQ100-Belkin/p/P-BSQ100

Others make the same type. Test with a surge strip that is used for a computer...
 
shortcircuit2 said:
Just a simple surge trap like this for under $10 should fix the problem?

http://www.belkin.com/us/BSQ100-Belkin/p/P-BSQ100

Others make the same type. Test with a surge strip that is used for a computer...
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One question, so will the surge trap effect the operation of the AFCI? If there was an actual issue will the surge trap allow more tolerance, basically not allowing the AFCI to actually see a fault. Or maybe I'm just over thinking it.
 
K8MHZ said:
He said he has had this problem with 3 different Whirlpool machines.

It looks like the common denominator is the Whirlpool company.
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Assuming that the equipment is in compliance with the product standard, then it is my opinion that the fault rests with the AFCI firmware.

The AFCI manufacturers have an impossible task...that is to write firmware that understands the arc signatures of all products that are in compliance with the product standards. It should not be the problem of the AFCI installer or user to fix problems caused by the AFCI firmware.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Assuming that the equipment is in compliance with the product standard, then it is my opinion that the fault rests with the AFCI firmware.

The AFCI manufacturers have an impossible task...that is to write firmware that understands the arc signatures of all products that are in compliance with the product standards. It should not be the problem of the AFCI installer or user to fix problems caused by the AFCI firmware.
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That sure will make the customer happy to know.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Assuming that the equipment is in compliance with the product standard, then it is my opinion that the fault rests with the AFCI firmware.

The AFCI manufacturers have an impossible task...that is to write firmware that understands the arc signatures of all products that are in compliance with the product standards. It should not be the problem of the AFCI installer or user to fix problems caused by the AFCI firmware.
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So coincidence that even replacing with a new AFCI breaker, the washer still tripped the breaker. So the homeowner had the appliance store replace the board in the washer and it still tripped. Then the appliance store just gave them some brand new SAMSUNG washer and dryer set. No issues.
 
Ohms law said:
So coincidence that even replacing with a new AFCI breaker, the washer still tripped the breaker. So the homeowner had the appliance store replace the board in the washer and it still tripped. Then the appliance store just gave them some brand new SAMSUNG washer and dryer set. No issues.
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There is no reason to assume that the arc signature of a correctly operating appliance from one manufacturer would be the same as one from the same type of appliance from another manufacturer. I still fault the AFCI firmware and not the appliance.
 
Ohms law said:
What do you suggest then?
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We as an industry and the consuming public need to get a backbone and put a stop to products like AFCI's being forced on us that are not ready for prime time. As much as I dislike lawyers, especially class action, I think this is a situation for them. We have become a nation of sheep and the government knows best.
 
Ohms law said:
So coincidence that even replacing with a new AFCI breaker, the washer still tripped the breaker. So the homeowner had the appliance store replace the board in the washer and it still tripped. Then the appliance store just gave them some brand new SAMSUNG washer and dryer set. No issues.
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Ohms law said:
What do you suggest then?
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I would suggest that all appliances\electronic devices sold in the US have to meet a stringent set of EMC standards. This would include the AFCI devices! That is the best possibility of having them all place nicely together.

In order to sell equipment in Europe manufacturers need to CE mark their equipment. That requires them to test against a wide range of EMC standards. This is done to minimize electronic interference with each other.

Assume that the AFCI in question is tripping due to the fast transients generated by relay switching. That type of electronic "noise" can be readily simulated and tested for. When standards agree on the allowable amount of noise that one device can emit, all others must then be tested to assure they will not be susceptible to erratic behavior when subjected to that same level ( in practice a greater value by some margin) of "noise or interference".

It is possible and likely that the Samsung equipment is CE marked. I doubt the AFCI is.

It is also very possible that the addition of an integral EMI filter to the Whirlpool would allow it to work with the AFCI.

I do not believe you can blame one more than the other without them both being held to the same set of standards. That being said, AFCI's were introduced way before they were ready for prime time and have a ways to go yet. Perhaps if they cost $200 each rather than $40 they could be made to place nicely with everybody else.
 
ELA said:
I would suggest that all appliances\electronic devices sold in the US have to meet a stringent set of EMC standards. This would include the AFCI devices! That is the best possibility of having them all place nicely together.

In order to sell equipment in Europe manufacturers need to CE mark their equipment. That requires them to test against a wide range of EMC standards. This is done to minimize electronic interference with each other.

Assume that the AFCI in question is tripping due to the fast transients generated by relay switching. That type of electronic "noise" can be readily simulated and tested for. When standards agree on the allowable amount of noise that one device can emit, all others must then be tested to assure they will not be susceptible to erratic behavior when subjected to that same level ( in practice a greater value by some margin) of "noise or interference".

It is possible and likely that the Samsung equipment is CE marked. I doubt the AFCI is.

It is also very possible that the addition of an integral EMI filter to the Whirlpool would allow it to work with the AFCI.

I do not believe you can blame one more than the other without them both being held to the same set of standards. That being said, AFCI's were introduced way before they were ready for prime time and have a ways to go yet. Perhaps if they cost $200 each rather than $40 they could be made to place nicely with everybody else.
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Is there an inexpensive EMI filter and is it easy to install? Someone suggested a plug in surge trap at the laundry receptacle. Would the surge trap accomplish the same thing?
 
ELA said:
I would suggest that all appliances\electronic devices sold in the US have to meet a stringent set of EMC standards. This would include the AFCI devices! That is the best possibility of having them all place nicely together.

In order to sell equipment in Europe manufacturers need to CE mark their equipment. That requires them to test against a wide range of EMC standards. This is done to minimize electronic interference with each other.

Assume that the AFCI in question is tripping due to the fast transients generated by relay switching. That type of electronic "noise" can be readily simulated and tested for. When standards agree on the allowable amount of noise that one device can emit, all others must then be tested to assure they will not be susceptible to erratic behavior when subjected to that same level ( in practice a greater value by some margin) of "noise or interference".

It is possible and likely that the Samsung equipment is CE marked. I doubt the AFCI is.

It is also very possible that the addition of an integral EMI filter to the Whirlpool would allow it to work with the AFCI.

I do not believe you can blame one more than the other without them both being held to the same set of standards. That being said, AFCI's were introduced way before they were ready for prime time and have a ways to go yet. Perhaps if they cost $200 each rather than $40 they could be made to place nicely with everybody else.
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I suggest that this is only a problem for the AFCI manufacturers...they need to make their product compliant with the real world. If they can't then they need to withdraw the product from the market.
In light of a recent UL study on damaged NM cable that shows it is almost impossible to create an arc with enough energy to start a fire, I am not sure that the AFCIs do anything more than make money for those involved.

As far as the CE marking, as it is a self marking system, no third party verification, I have no use for it. It means nothing to me as I don't trust manufacturers to self certify.
 
edward said:
Ohms law said:
Then it doesn't look like you have any choice but to have the customer change the washing machine. The washer tripping the AFCI is not your responsibility. You have done your responsibility and have installed AFCI to pass inspection.
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Tell that to the customer who still has a washing machine they can not use, and then send them a bill for $200 on top of everything.

don_resqcapt19 said:
There is no reason to assume that the arc signature of a correctly operating appliance from one manufacturer would be the same as one from the same type of appliance from another manufacturer. I still fault the AFCI firmware and not the appliance.
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Exactly why I said all AFCI's are not created equal. Same appliance may also trip one AFCI but not another.

texie said:
We as an industry and the consuming public need to get a backbone and put a stop to products like AFCI's being forced on us that are not ready for prime time. As much as I dislike lawyers, especially class action, I think this is a situation for them. We have become a nation of sheep and the government knows best.
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I have no problem with the intent of AFCI, but lets make something we know works before forcing people to use them.
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Ohms Law,
I saw the post about a surge trap. That is an unknown term to me, sounds like a brand name?. Depending upon how sensitive the AFCI is it may be something as simple as an MOV ( surge protected/power strip)
may help. It is more likely to require more protection ( noise rejection) than just an MOV. There are some surge protector/power strips that also include an across the line capacitor as a primitive EMI filter. Those are more likely to help. In the more severe cases it may require a full blown EMI filter with Inductive and capacitance elements.

There are several EMI filter manufacturers sites you could check for pricing and to get an idea of how difficult they might be to install.
 
So if I tell a customer to buy a $10.00 plug in surge trap will it keep the AFCI from nuisance tripping due to the relays in the wash machine? And out of curiosity if you where to put a whole house surge protector in would that prevent nuisance tripping and would it interfere with the full operation of the AFCI breaker protecting the circuit?
 
ELA said:
Ohms Law,
I saw the post about a surge trap. That is an unknown term to me, sounds like a brand name?. Depending upon how sensitive the AFCI is it may be something as simple as an MOV ( surge protected/power strip)
may help. It is more likely to require more protection ( noise rejection) than just an MOV. There are some surge protector/power strips that also include an across the line capacitor as a primitive EMI filter. Those are more likely to help. In the more severe cases it may require a full blown EMI filter with Inductive and capacitance elements.

There are several EMI filter manufacturers sites you could check for pricing and to get an idea of how difficult they might be to install.
Click to expand...

Its funny to read the reactions of how people feel about AFCI's, but thank you for giving me an answer, finally. Iam not familiar with EMI filters, are they easy enough to install and how do,you know which one to purchase for you application?
 
Ohms law said:
So if I tell a customer to buy a $10.00 plug in surge trap will it keep the AFCI from nuisance tripping due to the relays in the wash machine? And out of curiosity if you where to put a whole house surge protector in would that prevent nuisance tripping and would it interfere with the full operation of the AFCI breaker protecting the circuit?
Click to expand...
If the AFCI is looking at a current signature rather than a voltage signature, then no filtering on the line side of the AFCI would help. It would have to be on the load side. And probably the closer to the load the better.
 
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