200-amp long run primary

[Skizot722]

Hello. I'm purchasing a piece of raw land which will need both electric and water run to the home site. Both the electric company and rural water district have the utilities at the corner of the property, which is about 1400' from the home site. Even though the home will only be about 75 feet from a county road, both utility companies refuse to bring the lines down at their expense. The RWD is going to put the meter in at the corner of the property, and then it is my responsibility to purchase and trench the line approximately 1400' up to my home site (4' deep trench). So what I'm going to do is run both the electric and water in the same trench so that I don't have any overhead poles. I figured might as well throw the electric in there since the trench has to be dug for the water, and it's allowed to put them both in the "same" trench as long as there is at least 18" of horizontal separation. So that's the background, and here's my question.

I got an estimate from the electric co-op in the area for $10,000 - $11,000 - and this is after a $5,000 allowance from them (so total cost without the allowance would be $15,000 - $16,000). This seems pretty high to me, especially since those numbers don't include the cost of trenching (which I'm responsible for, but will be doing anyways for the water line). I priced out some 15kV 1/C 1/0 AWG AL Primary UD at $3.50 / foot (is it large enough? I really have no idea what size is required for this type of run). So at that price, the wire would be about $4,900. I tried to get a breakdown of cost, but the staking engineer would just say that the total cost was for: wire, transformer, labor, and meter pedestal with 200amp disconnect. The meter pedestal is what, $150-$200? So is the labor and transformer cost really at $10,000 - $11,000? Or am I way off in the size/cost of the wire for underground?

The other question I have is, if I were to hire this out to someone other than the electric co-op, and it would cost me the same amount, would it make more sense for me just to go that route and have them put the meter at the edge of the property (rather than at the house)? This way, the line all the way back to my house is private just like the water line is. I'm thinking the upside to this is I wouldn't have to provide them an easement, except for at the corner where the meter goes. The downside to that could be that I would be responsible for that wire if something happened to it (not likely with underground). But the way I read what they said is that I'm responsible anyways, even if they run the wire, just like I'm having to pay for the whole thing myself. I don't want an easement on my property the whole way, because I don't want them running poles later on for someone else's service through my property later on, especially after paying the extra to go underground.

I've read that some states actually have laws that require utility companies to pay for the infrastructure all the way to the meter at no cost to the customer. But I don't believe any such laws/regulations exist in Kansas.

 

[electrofelon]

10,000 is pretty cheap, that's 7 and change a foot, I would take it. Secondary is out of the question , you would need parallel 500 aluminum minumum which is more money not to mentioned a ton of labor. You could do your own step up step down and maybe save a little, but probably not worth the hassle and transformer losses you would have to pay forever. You can pretty easily get 15-25 kva padmounts surplus/used/ebay for 750-1000, but add the cable to that you are not that far ahead of 10k.

There is a very inexpensive but non code compliant solution that i did at my house and that is to use a 2400 volt step up step down system and 2 kv pv wire. Two conductors of #12 is all you need and it's 17 cents a foot (per conductor). I say non code compliant because despite tapping the transformers down, you will still be running a bit over 2kv. To be compliant, you would need to have transformers custom built as there is no standard medium voltage below 2400.

 

[robertd]

>have them put the meter at the edge of the property (rather than at the house)?

If you do that you will pay the cost of keeping the transformer energized when there is no load.
If the meter is at the house on the secondary side of the transformer the power company eats that
cost. I have no idea how much power the transformer takes when unloaded, but it does take some
power and turn it into heat.

 

[petersonra]

My guess is what they are offering to do is supply you with customer owned equipment that you will be responsible for. Underground cables have their own problems. You are probably best served running wires in PVC conduit. Utilities around here pretty much do that now. I'm really sort of surprised that they would even consider allowing you design and run your own medium voltage cables.

 

[Little Bill]

I am closing this thread, in accordance with the Forum rules. This Forum is intended to assist professional electricians, inspectors, engineers, and other members of the electrical industry in the performance of their job-related tasks. However, if you are not an electrician or an electrical contractor, then we are not permitted to help you perform your own electrical installation work.


If I have misjudged the situation, if for example this project is related to your work, then send me a Private Message. If you can show me that I am wrong, and that you are a licensed electrician (or at least a licensed apprentice), then I will reopen your post, and offer an apology for the delay and inconvenience.

A reminder to all members, if you see a questionable post, feel free to report it by clicking the

button at the bottom left corner of the post.

 

[George Stolz]

In light of moderator discussion and a polite request from the OP, I am reopening this thread. The OP has not asked for any DIY advice, and any DIY replies will be deleted as per policy.

 

[Skizot722]

My apologies, guys. I didn't mean to come across like I was looking for DIY advice. I'm definitely not trying to design this myself. Just trying to figure out if the quote is in the ballpark of what it should be, or whether I should hire this out to an electrician other than the county electric co-op. I mentioned pricing out the wire because I was trying to understand the costs associated with their quote.

 

[electrofelon]

My apologies, guys. I didn't mean to come across like I was looking for DIY advice. I'm definitely not trying to design this myself. Just trying to figure out if the quote is in the ballpark of what it should be, or whether I should hire this out to an electrician other than the county electric co-op. I mentioned pricing out the wire because I was trying to understand the costs associated with their quote.

most utilities wont let anyone else supply and run their (the utility's) primary. Also most utilities wont provide a MV residential service. If these two things are the case, then that means you either have to pay them to bring primary in, or take service at 12/240 with a meter and disconnect, and do a customer owned step up step back down scheme. Keep in mind with the latter, you will be paying about $25 per month just to keep the transformers energized. I dont see any savings hiring an electrical contractor to do a step up step down. If you were an electrician and could do it yourself, you could maybe do it for $6000 if you got a good deal on transformers. If it makes you feel better, Ive seen utilities charge twice what they quoted you.

 

[George Stolz]

One aspect of this you should be aware of is that people who present unusual challenges to the powers that be generally get more than their fair share of headaches back in payment. I would exercise all due charm when treading into the "break out your costs" territory, if at all; the utility likely has the best deal on wire, discounted labor with the REA model, etc. It'll likely be far cheaper to use REA, and painfully executed if you get started on the wrong foot, because they know where you will eventually buy power, and they know you have to wait on their timetables.

On the private side, there are classes of customer that always find the schedule three weeks out, even if I am having trouble keeping the guys busy - the out-of-state maintenance companies. They make it painful to work with them, and I return the favor by simply being unavailable. The same principle applies to your situation.

 

[kwired]

Hello. I'm purchasing a piece of raw land which will need both electric and water run to the home site. Both the electric company and rural water district have the utilities at the corner of the property, which is about 1400' from the home site. Even though the home will only be about 75 feet from a county road, both utility companies refuse to bring the lines down at their expense. The RWD is going to put the meter in at the corner of the property, and then it is my responsibility to purchase and trench the line approximately 1400' up to my home site (4' deep trench). So what I'm going to do is run both the electric and water in the same trench so that I don't have any overhead poles. I figured might as well throw the electric in there since the trench has to be dug for the water, and it's allowed to put them both in the "same" trench as long as there is at least 18" of horizontal separation. So that's the background, and here's my question.

I got an estimate from the electric co-op in the area for $10,000 - $11,000 - and this is after a $5,000 allowance from them (so total cost without the allowance would be $15,000 - $16,000). This seems pretty high to me, especially since those numbers don't include the cost of trenching (which I'm responsible for, but will be doing anyways for the water line). I priced out some 15kV 1/C 1/0 AWG AL Primary UD at $3.50 / foot (is it large enough? I really have no idea what size is required for this type of run). So at that price, the wire would be about $4,900. I tried to get a breakdown of cost, but the staking engineer would just say that the total cost was for: wire, transformer, labor, and meter pedestal with 200amp disconnect. The meter pedestal is what, $150-$200? So is the labor and transformer cost really at $10,000 - $11,000? Or am I way off in the size/cost of the wire for underground?

The other question I have is, if I were to hire this out to someone other than the electric co-op, and it would cost me the same amount, would it make more sense for me just to go that route and have them put the meter at the edge of the property (rather than at the house)? This way, the line all the way back to my house is private just like the water line is. I'm thinking the upside to this is I wouldn't have to provide them an easement, except for at the corner where the meter goes. The downside to that could be that I would be responsible for that wire if something happened to it (not likely with underground). But the way I read what they said is that I'm responsible anyways, even if they run the wire, just like I'm having to pay for the whole thing myself. I don't want an easement on my property the whole way, because I don't want them running poles later on for someone else's service through my property later on, especially after paying the extra to go underground.

I've read that some states actually have laws that require utility companies to pay for the infrastructure all the way to the meter at no cost to the customer. But I don't believe any such laws/regulations exist in Kansas.

They can give you that $5000 allowance because of the fact they will recover it over time in energy sales/ monthly service fees.

There is more cost to the job then just 14-1500 feet of cable. There is transformer, transformer base, some medium voltage equipment needed termination equipment for each end of that cable at the very least, may or may not be setting new pole or reworking some equipment on an existing pole, then there is secondary conductors though they may be short from the transformer to the metering/disconnecting means (most rural power systems do provide a disconnecting means as standard) 200 amp meter pedestal with disconnect is going to be more in the $500 range and not $150 - 200.

How much will they charge you to put meter at the edge of property? They will still use some of same items and likely still charge you for them, biggest difference besides the long underground run may be they hang a transformer on a pole instead of using a pad mount transformer.



They are not going to run a line to serve another property without gaining more easement for what they end up adding when that time comes. The easement you would have right now gives them the right to enter your property to maintain their utility equipment located on your property. If it stops at your house they can not extend across an area they don't have easement for. Down the road you could grant easement to lessen cost for a neighbor that wants power - and can ask for compensation for it, why should they get to use the portion you paid for without some compensation to you? - but they will still have the right to enter property to maintain their equipment once they have that easement.

After you upsize a secondary conductor to compensate for voltage drop - POCO cost is probably cheap, and they generally will be responsible for maintenance down the road.

If you can work out an arrangement to put both the electric and water in same trench, you maybe can save some $$$. Possible your POCO don't want primary lines buried in close proximity to another utility like that though.

Other things to consider - you run secondary lines 1400 feet, size them for current expected needs then in a few years decide to add a shop, barn, swimming pool, or just increased load in your house for whatever reason - now you might need to re work that entire 1400 foot run to handle the new load. Run the primary close to the house - it is already able to handle quite a bit more load then you currently have - you may need to change the transformer, but that is a fairly simple swap for the POCO, and they likely only charge you a small fee that is the difference in cost between old and new transformer, not a similar cost as starting from scratch.

 

[Skizot722]

One aspect of this you should be aware of is that people who present unusual challenges to the powers that be generally get more than their fair share of headaches back in payment. I would exercise all due charm when treading into the "break out your costs" territory, if at all; the utility likely has the best deal on wire, discounted labor with the REA model, etc. It'll likely be far cheaper to use REA, and painfully executed if you get started on the wrong foot, because they know where you will eventually buy power, and they know you have to wait on their timetables.

On the private side, there are classes of customer that always find the schedule three weeks out, even if I am having trouble keeping the guys busy - the out-of-state maintenance companies. They make it painful to work with them, and I return the favor by simply being unavailable. The same principle applies to your situation.

I'm not trying to get on their bad side. It seems somewhat odd that you interpret me trying to do my due diligence on this as me trying to make it painful for them. An explanation of costs shouldn't be asking for too much. When you do work for a client, do you just hand them an un-itemized invoice? My wager would be no, and I'd also imagine most would want to see a breakdown. For government contracts in my field, I'd be laughed at if I tried to do that. Maybe you're saying private sector is different, but I'd expect no less as a customer.

Apparently I've ruffled feathers here somehow. That was not my intent at all. I was just trying to make sure what I was being charged was in the realm of acceptable. Not knowing how to determine that myself, and not being able to get an answer out of the co-op, I thought it'd make sense to post to a forum such as this. Please go ahead and lock this thread again, if you want to.

 

[Skizot722]

kwired, I really appreciate your response.

 

[kwired]

I'm not trying to get on their bad side. It seems somewhat odd that you interpret me trying to do my due diligence on this as me trying to make it painful for them. An explanation of costs shouldn't be asking for too much. When you do work for a client, do you just hand them an un-itemized invoice? My wager would be no, and I'd also imagine most would want to see a breakdown. For government contracts in my field, I'd be laughed at if I tried to do that. Maybe you're saying private sector is different, but I'd expect no less as a customer.

Apparently I've ruffled feathers here somehow. That was not my intent at all. I was just trying to make sure what I was being charged was in the realm of acceptable. Not knowing how to determine that myself, and not being able to get an answer out of the co-op, I thought it'd make sense to post to a forum such as this. Please go ahead and lock this thread again, if you want to.

I don't know what your rural power companies are like where you are at. Are they publicly owned or privately owned? Either way do they give you a choice other then meter at the edge of property vs meter at/near the house? Some have very strict design policies and you take it or go without power, others are pretty flexible.

Here the utilities are publicly owned. They may still have design specifications they want followed, but you may have choices in how to get it done. Since they are publicly owned and not for profit organizations, they pretty much only charge what is necessary to cover costs, and as a contractor that sort of hurts me - yet I still tell customers often to have POCO do this or that because it will cost less then I can do it for.

There is one POCO in my area that would make you responsible for burying a PVC pipe across that 1400 feet and install a pull line. They would pull the medium voltage cable through, finish extending up the pole, and set the transformer.

 

[kwired]

As far as itemizing costs - what difference does it make as long as you have a scope and a cost.

So what if one installer charges you 9000 in materials and 1000 in labor but another charges you 1000 in materials and 9000 in labor as long as the end result is the same?

There are often many small items that are unknown at estimate time that end up getting used to complete the project.

 

[Skizot722]

As far as itemizing costs - what difference does it make as long as you have a scope and a cost.

So what if one installer charges you 9000 in materials and 1000 in labor but another charges you 1000 in materials and 9000 in labor as long as the end result is the same?

There are often many small items that are unknown at estimate time that end up getting used to complete the project.

Sure, I get what you are saying. Itemization just helps one understand if they are overcharging. I suppose at the end of the day it doesn't matter, if I have no choice. If I have a choice, and I can hire it out for cheaper than what the co-op would charge me, I would prefer to do that. I have a budget to keep on the project, and I can't just bust the wallet wide open. I have to carefully research each component of infrastructure involved. Maybe most people just write a check without researching anything? That's not me.

As far as the PVC goes, they don't require it here. But I am responsible for digging the trench the entire way, and then filling it. This is OK with me, because I have to do it for the water line anyways. They do allow both water and electric in the same trench, so long as there is 18" horizontal separation. I believe the bucket the excavators are going to use is 3' wide, so the separation will be even wider. At that point, it's technically not even the same trench.

 

[iwire]

Sure, I get what you are saying. Itemization just helps one understand if they are overcharging.

Of course but those that you ask that of know that too which brings us back to George's point.

One aspect of this you should be aware of is that people who present unusual challenges to the powers that be generally get more than their fair share of headaches back in payment.

Believe this.

 

[Skizot722]

Appreciate the info here, guys. If you knew me, you'd know that I'm not a pain in the arse. Just like to know everything that I can before making a decision. Even more so when it involves 10s or 100s of thousands of $$$.

 

[mgookin]

Price sounds cheap. Your POCO is doing you well.

 

[winnie]

At the quoted price for connecting to the grid, would 'off grid' solar make sense?

Have you had a proper load calculation run? You say '200A', but do you have an article 220 calculation, and do you have a ballpark for daily energy use?

Even if you decided to run something 'off grid' (solar, generator, wind, etc), I'd suggest running the conduit (and a spare!) in the trench should you decide to go for grid power, or hard wire phone.

-Jon

 

[Skizot722]

At the quoted price for connecting to the grid, would 'off grid' solar make sense?

Have you had a proper load calculation run? You say '200A', but do you have an article 220 calculation, and do you have a ballpark for daily energy use?

Even if you decided to run something 'off grid' (solar, generator, wind, etc), I'd suggest running the conduit (and a spare!) in the trench should you decide to go for grid power, or hard wire phone.

-Jon

No load calc done yet.

On the solar, I'd absolutely love to go that route. But it'd end up being probably double the cost of connecting to the grid. One thing about the solar rebates, especially the state ones, is that you have to be connected to the grid anyways to receive the credit/rebate. This is because they expect you to send your unused power back upstream. Just some rough numbers, a 7 kW solar setup would be a min of around $15k. Then I looked at getting two Tesla Powerwall 2's, which are $5500 a piece. I think the 7kW system might not cut it for me either, because at about 75% efficiency, that's about 25 kWh a day. In the summer time here, we regularly use > 30 kWh a day due to the heat.

I'd really really love to go solar, but I don't think the cost makes it feasible right now. And the thing about those batteries is that they're good for about 10-12 years. Then you'll be writing an $11k check for new ones. Surely they'd come down in price in 10 years from now, but I don't know about having to foot that bill for replacement later down the line.