200 amp minimum service for residential.

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The trend in vehicles being what it is, including capacity for at least one car charger should be part of the load calculation for any dwelling unit with a garage. (or carport, dedicated parking space, et al.) Omitting it seems like shortsightedness bordering on negligence.
 
I think the point is just to make the customer aware of what might be needed later that isn't being calculated presently. As mentioned, don't work for free, but official recommendations for upgrades is part of being a professional.

You can't be a competitive bidder if you are including what you consider to be mandatory upgrades. The next guy won't, and the typical customer won't know why your price is actually the better package.
 
drcampbell said:
The trend in vehicles being what it is, including capacity for at least one car charger should be part of the load calculation for any dwelling unit with a garage. (or carport, dedicated parking space, et al.) Omitting it seems like shortsightedness bordering on negligence.
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Did someone post hereabouts regarding some new battery that's supposed to take 35kW-hr charge in 5 minutes? Needs a 1,500 amp service IIRC. Everybody gets their own personal pole pig. :roll:
 
gadfly56 said:
Especially if this were tract housing. A few dollars over 50 - 100 houses can add up.

Just went to HD, and a Square D 40-space 200 amp panel with (3) 20-amp single pole and (2) 30-amp double pole breakers is $127. The 150 amp 30-space panel with the same breakers is $142. The 100 amp 24-space panel with the same breakers is $64.
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And if doing 50-100 houses you would likely be better off buying all 50-100 plus breakers on one order at the supply house. 100 amp panels will likely cost less, but you probably get nearly same price for 150's as you do for 200's on such an order.
 
kwired said:
And if doing 50-100 houses you would likely be better off buying all 50-100 plus breakers on one order at the supply house. 100 amp panels will likely cost less, but you probably get nearly same price for 150's as you do for 200's on such an order.
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If 200's already cost less than 150's at HD, how does that change at the supply house with a larger order? Or are you saying something different? :?
 
kwired said:
And if doing 50-100 houses you would likely be better off buying all 50-100 plus breakers on one order at the supply house. 100 amp panels will likely cost less, but you probably get nearly same price for 150's as you do for 200's on such an order.
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once you get your written quote from the supply house, take it to Home Depot and they will beat it by 10%
 
drcampbell said:
The trend in vehicles being what it is, including capacity for at least one car charger should be part of the load calculation for any dwelling unit with a garage. (or carport, dedicated parking space, et al.) Omitting it seems like shortsightedness bordering on negligence.
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So what about all the existing POCO infrastructure?
 
They'll either need to upgrade their delivery capacity, or implement smart-grid technology to achieve higher utilization factors, or both. One of the benefits of residential car chargers is that they consume the most power when air conditioning (one of the biggest residential loads) is using the least.

Meanwhile, the existing gasoline refining & delivery infrastructure will never again need as much capacity as is currently installed.
 
drcampbell said:
They'll either need to upgrade their delivery capacity, or implement smart-grid technology to achieve higher utilization factors, or both. One of the benefits of residential car chargers is that they consume the most power when air conditioning (one of the biggest residential loads) is using the least.

Meanwhile, the existing gasoline refining & delivery infrastructure will never again need as much capacity as is currently installed.
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So yes, so a 100amp panel will do.
 
No, a panel needs to be sized for the peak load -- the moment after you arrive home, plug the car in to charge, put dinner on the stove and dessert in the oven, and turn on the air conditioner and the entertainment center. An individual house can't take advantage of diversity to the extent a utility supplying the whole neighborhood can.
 
drcampbell said:
No, a panel needs to be sized for the peak load -- the moment after you arrive home, plug the car in to charge, put dinner on the stove and dessert in the oven, and turn on the air conditioner and the entertainment center. An individual house can't take advantage of diversity to the extent a utility supplying the whole neighborhood can.
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Not if you have smart grid technology. Car ramps up charging after 9 P.M. You would have to even with a full size panel, 7 homes on a 25kva as is custom would and destroy it once you add the cars to that peak load.
 
mbrooke said:
...Car ramps up charging after 9 P.M. ...
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Air conditioning is still at peak usage through the late evening. The heat load is still coming through the walls that have been soaked by the Sun all day. Air conditioning usage is lowest in the morning, especially for those who have a programmable thermostat and don't run it until before they come home from work.

Car chargers can be programmed to charge during the 3-6 AM window, or just before the morning commute, but you'd have to make this some kind of default setting. No one is going to do that unless they are forced to. They are going to charge it as soon as they get home in the evening.
 
gadfly56 said:
If 200's already cost less than 150's at HD, how does that change at the supply house with a larger order? Or are you saying something different? :?
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James L said:
once you get your written quote from the supply house, take it to Home Depot and they will beat it by 10%
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Haven't checked recently, but used to get 150 or 200 amp main breaker QO panels with same number of branch spaces for nearly identical prices at supply house that is a Square D authorized distributor.

When you have a large order from an authorized distributor you order not only panels and breakers, but anything else Square D makes that you may need for the job. Your price comes from Square D not the supply house, and is for the entire order. If all you have is panels and breakers you may get the bill of material for at least half what you would if you came in and randomly picked up same items over duration of the project.

I'm guessing Home Depot isn't too likely to compete with that, especially if you have three phase panels or motor controls and other industrial type items on your list.
 
MAC702 said:
Air conditioning is still at peak usage through the late evening. The heat load is still coming through the walls that have been soaked by the Sun all day. Air conditioning usage is lowest in the morning, especially for those who have a programmable thermostat and don't run it until before they come home from work.
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Still isn't the cooking/laundry and so forth load. Outside temps are dropping and the condenser isn't roasting in the sun any longer. Load is a lot lower than at 5-7.


Car chargers can be programmed to charge during the 3-6 AM window, or just before the morning commute, but you'd have to make this some kind of default setting. No one is going to do that unless they are forced to. They are going to charge it as soon as they get home in the evening.
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Smart grid requires sacrifice. Like the consumer knowing their DW will start at 1 in the morning. If we go to all electric cars POCOs will compel that at any cost.
 
kwired said:
....I'm guessing Home Depot isn't too likely to compete with that, especially if you have three phase panels or motor controls and other industrial type items on your list.
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I've been told at their Pro desk that if you can find it, they can get it - anything. And that they'll beat the best price you get by 10%

Call 'em and ask. You just might save a bundle
 
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