200 Amp Panel Supplied With 12 AWG

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iwire

iwire

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I was sent to add two 30 amp 120 volt circuits at a business.

The customer showed me this 200 amp 3 phase panel with lots of space left.

Without ever opening the panel I ran the circuits to this panel.

It was not until I opened it did I realize I had a problem. :mad:



Click on the above photo for a larger image.

So from what you can see do we have any violations?
 
Re: 200 Amp Panel Supplied With 12 AWG

From a stand point of #12 feeding this panel
though extremely stupid, if the feed wires (#12)
are on a 20 amp breaker at then source I guess that would be ok. it sure won't handle the load on the panel. Other violations may and probably do exist.

[ December 03, 2005, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: shelco ]
 
Re: 200 Amp Panel Supplied With 12 AWG

1) Looks like there may be unclosed openings in the top of the panel?

2) Don't guess that ground lug is rated for 3 #12 conductors.

3) Non-conudctive coatings need to be removed where the ground lug is bonded. (250.96)

4) Also, don't think those main lugs are rated for a conductor as small as #12.

Mark

[ December 03, 2005, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: busman ]
 
Re: 200 Amp Panel Supplied With 12 AWG

Bob, I've actually done this at least twice. It was when I worked for a contractor who's goal in life was to underbid work and generate change orders to rake in the cash. There are jobs in which the specs and plans are so poorly written that you can wire a 200 amp panel with #12 to satisfy the contract. These are contracts that curiously also don't have the "must conform to 19xx NEC" written in either. Naturally, you're fishing for a change order when you do this. I've never actually left an installation in such a state.
 
Re: 200 Amp Panel Supplied With 12 AWG

Originally posted by kbsparky:
I got a smaller image when clicking on that pic. :confused:
Click to expand...
Does your browser automatically resize photos to fit it's window?

With mine once a large picture downloads I have to click an icon on the bottom right of he screen to get the full size.
 
Re: 200 Amp Panel Supplied With 12 AWG

:eek: :eek: :confused: WOW! So what did you have to end up doing Iwire?
 
Re: 200 Amp Panel Supplied With 12 AWG

I`m sure you went and checked the MDP :D
Hey if I was contracted to do that job and found what you did I`d bring the circuits in the panel and tag them DO NOT USE UNTIl UPGRADED,then went to collect the check,After all you were contracted to do a job.You did that.But they didn`t pay to make it work on #12 wire.
 
Re: 200 Amp Panel Supplied With 12 AWG

That ground lug also appears to be affixed with a hex head fastener. I'd almost bet it's a self drilling sheet metal screw, which ain't exactly proper.

I'd be curious to know what the size the overcurrent protection was on the other end of this #12 feeder.

There also doesn't appear to be a neutral coming in with those phase conductors. I clicked for the bigger picture, but I still can't tell for sure. The bond screw is missing, so there must be a neutral there somehow.
 
Re: 200 Amp Panel Supplied With 12 AWG

You guys are all sharp but Dave gets extra points for the setback. :cool:

1)Yes there are open KOs

2)Yes the sheet rock went over panel tub which was mounted flush with the studs.

3)No the 'grounding bar' is not listed for 3 conductors

4)Yes it was mounted with a TEK screw.

5)Yes it was mounted right on the paper label.

6)No the terminals on the breaker are not rated for 12 AWG

7)Yes there is an incoming neutral, it is the one that makes the 'loop' before terminating.

8)Overcurrent protection?

We don't need no stinkin' overcurrent protection.

I found this panel was directly supplied via it's own transformer it was a 6.5 KVA.

It's my bet the 18 amp rated transformer will let smoke out before the 12 AWG THHN.

There was negligible load maybe .7 amps on one leg but I was going to add two 30 amp circuits for UPS systems.

What did I do?

Not much.

I ran my new circuits elsewhere and explained the situation to the customer. They have no interest in upgrading as 'It's been that way for years'.

Before I left I put a P-Touch label above the 200 amp main that said "This Panel Supplied with a 20 amp feeder!" :roll:

[ December 03, 2005, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: 200 Amp Panel Supplied With 12 AWG

Although there are a few minor violations with this installation the main thing that is wrong is I haven?t gotten paid for it yet. Could you collect it and send it to me please? See can you get it in cash.
:D :D :D
 
Re: 200 Amp Panel Supplied With 12 AWG

At least the original installer realized it was a lighting and appliance panel and installed that main breaker!!
 
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