200 Amp Single phase Grounding

C

curious23

Member
Location
Ohio
Occupation
Electrician
I have a question for veteran Electrical Contractors.
I am running a new subpanel to a pole barn from the home owners Load Center. The issue is they have a 200 amp Meter Main that feeds the Homes Feeder Subpanel panel. The feeder conductors are only 3 wire URD and not installed in conduit. I explained to the owner that he needed to add an equipment grounding conductor in the same path as the 3 existing feeder conductors. He doesn't want to pay the cost for the equipment grounding conductor to be properly installed.

Are there any other safe options that come with a lower cost?

If not, can a veteran Electrical Contractor give me guidance on this issue.
 
Is the meter main on the outside of the house or a detached structure?

Are there any parallel neutral/grounded paths between the meter main and the house?
 
If you can feed the outbuilding straight from the meter you can take advantage of 230.40 exception 2 and run 3 wire
 
curious23 said:
I have a question for veteran Electrical Contractors.
I am running a new subpanel to a pole barn from the home owners Load Center. The issue is they have a 200 amp Meter Main that feeds the Homes Feeder Subpanel panel. The feeder conductors are only 3 wire URD and not installed in conduit. I explained to the owner that he needed to add an equipment grounding conductor in the same path as the 3 existing feeder conductors. He doesn't want to pay the cost for the equipment grounding conductor to be properly installed.

Are there any other safe options that come with a lower cost?

If not, can a veteran Electrical Contractor give me guidance on this issue.
Click to expand...
So I take it you aren't pulling a permit.
 
If you can feed the pole barn from the meter main then you are ok and can run 4 wires to the barn. The OP wants to feed it from the indoor panel which I don't think will comply
 
curious23 said:
I have a question for veteran Electrical Contractors.
I am running a new subpanel to a pole barn from the home owners Load Center. The issue is they have a 200 amp Meter Main that feeds the Homes Feeder Subpanel panel. The feeder conductors are only 3 wire URD and not installed in conduit. I explained to the owner that he needed to add an equipment grounding conductor in the same path as the 3 existing feeder conductors. He doesn't want to pay the cost for the equipment grounding conductor to be properly installed.

Are there any other safe options that come with a lower cost?

If not, can a veteran Electrical Contractor give me guidance on this issue.
Click to expand...
Please clarify order of things as it is a little confusing, particularly the "Homes Feeder Subpanel panel" part.

I think you are trying to say utility>>>>meter main>>>>>>house panel>>>>>new pole barn. And that it is three conductors from meter main to house panel. As mentioned this would been fairly normal and permissible before 2008 NEC. I will also add that some locations (I live in one of them) particularly if said meter main is utility supplied and maintained the AHJ still considers the conductors to the house to be treated like they are service conductors, as the utility possibly can update, repair, replace the meter main with something that doesn't qualify as a service disconnect. We would still need to run a separate EGC to the pole barn if I had similar situation as you have.
 
Every home being built here today that is powered by our rural coop has a 3 wire feed from the meter-main to the house panel. The house panel is considered the service point.
 
zbang said:
I think you could run a 240v only feeder w/ ground to the barn and use a 240->240/120 transformer to derive a neutral. (There may some subtlety that I'm missing, but I'm only half-way into the morning coffee.)
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Likely not going to cost less than running a 4th conductor though. Possibly not even going to be less than running a 4th conductor with the house feeder, presuming it is in raceway and you have the ability to pull an additional conductor.
 
zbang said:
I think you could run a 240v only feeder w/ ground to the barn and use a 240->240/120 transformer to derive a neutral. (There may some subtlety that I'm missing, but I'm only half-way into the morning coffee.)
Click to expand...
Or... He could just run a 4 wire feeder to the barn.
 
zbang said:
Certainly, but sometimes options are worth looking into, if nothing else to know just how much more it might cost.
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Assuming a 100 amp feeder to barn and using a 25kVA transformer you maybe spend $1500-$2000 on the transformer, plus primary side disconnect at the barn and some other accessories. Plus you have some continuous idle losses just having the transformer energized.

Add a 6 AWG for maybe an additional $1.00 a foot and you would need have a run of like 1500 feet before the transformer becomes much of a consideration for less cost on the EGC alone.
 
@curious23 can you clarify something:

Is the service to the home 3 wires from the meter/disconnect on a pole, and you are seeking guidance about how to deal with it?

Or is there an existing 3 wire feed from the house to the barn that you need to figure out how to use?

Jonathan
 
Couldn’t the meter main be the emergency disconnect therefor allowing the 3wire feeder to the house panel ( service disconnect)

Guess it all depends on code cycle they are on and if there is a max footage for the emergency disconnect. I feel like there is one now 50’ but years prior 2023 there was no language for how far it could be. Anyone?
 
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