200% Neutral - Apartment Building

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Since this building is going to undergo a major renovation why not change the service to allow for individual metering?
 
winnie said:
1 transformer in 1 electrical room to feed 80 units, or multiple transformers in multiple electrical rooms?
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One per floor. 6 floors. Honestly the easiest thing here is to change to 120/208V 3 phase wye distribution transformers to feed the apartments. Owner was concerned about 208 for appliances like dryer and range. These appliances are available for connection to either voltage just need to purchase one that is listed for connection at 208V.
 
I personally would prefer 240V vs 208V in my home. Many appliances are rated for both, but give better performance at 240V.

For this application the simplest solution for 240V is to put a standard single phase transformer on each floor. Balance your supply by putting different floors on different supply phases.

Jon
 
Acknowledging the advantage of a 208wye system, I think some merit should be given to the owners concern on the availability of non-commercial 208v cooking equipment and dryers. Admittedly 240v units will work on 208 but some there may be concern from some residents. Been there, done that and prefer an attempt to balance single phase transformers.
( winnie posted as I typed and obviously I agree with his post )
 
curt swartz said:
Since this building is going to undergo a major renovation why not change the service to allow for individual metering?
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That is a completely different topic. CM actually thought you could establish a POCO meter stack in the building after the 277/480V service and single building meter. I had to break the news to them that the power company would not allow that. Met with the POCO to discuss the option to add a service for the apartments and cost shot it down as well as space limitations for a new pad mount it is in the city downtown area. Owner going to Emon Demon metering and working with a management company to charge for electricity. Here in PA technically not permitted to do that but there are loop holes used. What they are exactly I am unsure of. I suppose if someone challenged it could be 'messy' but really who is going to make that leap.
 
LibertyEngineering said:
One per floor. 6 floors. Honestly the easiest thing here is to change to 120/208V 3 phase wye distribution transformers to feed the apartments. Owner was concerned about 208 for appliances like dryer and range. These appliances are available for connection to either voltage just need to purchase one that is listed for connection at 208V.
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This has been discussed elsewhere. An oven will take ~33% longer to preheat. Other than that, the occupant is unlikely to notice any performance difference on dual voltage appliances, since the appliance thermostat will just have the heating element on for more of the time at lower power. Difference in energy consumption will be negligible.
 
LibertyEngineering said:
That is a completely different topic. CM actually thought you could establish a POCO meter stack in the building after the 277/480V service and single building meter. I had to break the news to them that the power company would not allow that. Met with the POCO to discuss the option to add a service for the apartments and cost shot it down as well as space limitations for a new pad mount it is in the city downtown area. Owner going to Emon Demon metering and working with a management company to charge for electricity. Here in PA technically not permitted to do that but there are loop holes used. What they are exactly I am unsure of. I suppose if someone challenged it could be 'messy' but really who is going to make that leap.
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I was thinking about metering at my place. Right now it's not a big deal I only have some people plugged in to 20 amp receptacles. But I have some that want 50 amp 120v for RVs. If I go that large I've got to do metering. I was meaning to look into the legality of it and what my options are.

The other problem is similar to yours. I have Delta high leg service so I can only load A-C
 
Joethemechanic said:
I was thinking about metering at my place. Right now it's not a big deal I only have some people plugged in to 20 amp receptacles. But I have some that want 50 amp 120v for RVs. If I go that large I've got to do metering. I was meaning to look into the legality of it and what my options are.
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PPL typically takes the approach of turning a blind eye to it when it is done. PECO has specific language in their 'Bluebook' (for those of us old enough to remember when it really was a little blue book that PECO used for regulations) that specifically speaks to the fact it is not permitted. To me this makes sense because ultimately a landlord could charge the tenant whatever they want for electricity and pocket profit. Even if it was only $10/month. If he/she has 100 tenants that's $12K a year in profit. All of which is not regulated by the PUC. Listed as a reimbursable expense its tax fee too!
 
augie47 said:
Acknowledging the advantage of a 208wye system, I think some merit should be given to the owners concern on the availability of non-commercial 208v cooking equipment and dryers. Admittedly 240v units will work on 208 but some there may be concern from some residents. Been there, done that and prefer an attempt to balance single phase transformers.
( winnie posted as I typed and obviously I agree with his post )
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I suppose there is merit in either direction. Another plus for the 3 phase wye is the primary OCP & feeder are significantly smaller. Each floor has the need for a 150kVA transformer to feed the units based on the NEC 225 Optional Method calcs.
 
LibertyEngineering said:
PPL typically takes the approach of turning a blind eye to it when it is done. PECO has specific language in their 'Bluebook' (for those of us old enough to remember when it really was a little blue book that PECO used for regulations) that specifically speaks to the fact it is not permitted. To me this makes sense because ultimately a landlord could charge the tenant whatever they want for electricity and pocket profit. Even if it was only $10/month. If he/she has 100 tenants that's $12K a year in profit. All of which is not regulated by the PUC. Listed as a reimbursable expense its tax fee too!
Click to expand...
In many states only a regulated utility/POCO can make a profit selling electricity.
Others, like landlords, are allowed to apportion a single power bill across its tenants, in some cases including a small amount for administrative costs.
 
I have set up some sub metering stuff before. I have come to question why on earth anyone would do that. It seems temping at first as it simplifies the service/distribution equipment, but I can't believe any money is saved after the purchase and installation of all the sub metering equipment, not to mention the paperwork hassle - forever ♾️....
 
electrofelon said:
I have set up some sub metering stuff before. I have come to question why on earth anyone would do that. It seems temping at first as it simplifies the service/distribution equipment, but I can't believe any money is saved after the purchase and installation of all the sub metering equipment, not to mention the paperwork hassle - forever ♾️....
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ge coin.jpg

No paperwork, no collections, no shutoffs, just open the coin box and get your money
 
LibertyEngineering said:
Hello all!

Have a building that has a 277/480V 3 phase, wye service. It was an old commercial building that is being renovated into apartments.
We are feeding the apartments (about 80) using a 120/240V delta 3-phase transformers to a distribution panels that feed each unit from the distribution panels to a 100A, 120/240V single phase panel in each apartment (owner insisted the units be fed with 120/240 not 120/208V but that is another post that could be written as to why)

Now they are questioning if the distribution panels should have 200% neutrals and oversized neutral conductors. Not a whole lot of non-linear loads involved here and even if there were it's not 2001 when computer power supplies were a big factor like in data centers. Not sure what would be the reason for making this an issue. Am I missing something?

Thanks for the replies!
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Oversized neutrals are pointless for residential. But 4WD? Your 3Ø will be SO unbalanced. Why not three single phase 480:120/240V transformers? Let's get that other thread going!
 
LibertyEngineering said:
Met with the POCO to discuss the option to add a service for the apartments and cost shot it down as well as space limitations for a new pad mount it is in the city
Click to expand...
Pad mount the only option? Does the power company no longer allow 'submersables' (the below sidewalk installs)?
 
LibertyEngineering said:
PPL typically takes the approach of turning a blind eye to it when it is done. PECO has specific language in their 'Bluebook' (for those of us old enough to remember when it really was a little blue book that PECO used for regulations) that specifically speaks to the fact it is not permitted. To me this makes sense because ultimately a landlord could charge the tenant whatever they want for electricity and pocket profit. Even if it was only $10/month. If he/she has 100 tenants that's $12K a year in profit. All of which is not regulated by the PUC. Listed as a reimbursable expense its tax fee too!
Click to expand...
Last time I did a 300 unit apartment in PECO territory, they told me I HAD to sub-meter it because they would only serve it at 13.2 kV.
 
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