2017 GFCI protection on receptacles for which breakers do not exist - Square D QO

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mjjstang

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Hello,

Hoping I could get some advice. I am no electrician, but my company produces equipment which must follow NEC. We are working to comply with 2017 GFCI breaker update. We must provide CB protection for any receptacle under 60A. Problem is that Square D does not make a single pole 40 or 50 GFCI QO breaker. I am trying to find a way to install a 120V 5-50R that would comply with the new rule. Also, we only use this particular style of breaker, so if another company or style of Square D breaker exists, this wouldn't work for our application.

Question is, is it NEC compliant to use a QO250GFI 2-pole GFCI breaker, and wire to only one of the terminals? There is no need to tie the handles, as there is only the one on QO. It would be even more appreciated if somebody had the NEC text or section that I could reference that would apply to this.

Thank you for any help. I did do a lot of searching, but couldn't find info specifically relating to this.
 
There is nothing in the code to prohibit that, but there is also no specific language that permits it. It will work fine and if there are multiple receptacles, and the job permits the use of multi wire branch circuits, you could feed two receptacles from a single breaker.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
There is nothing in the code to prohibit that, but there is also no specific language that permits it. It will work fine and if there are multiple receptacles, and the job permits the use of multi wire branch circuits, you could feed two receptacles from a single breaker.
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Thank you Don. I should also mention this breaker is rated at 120/240. Another point is I realize I am in the minority here as a manufacturer of equipment, but what are all the electricians doing when you get an "other than dwelling" job and you need to install a 5-50 receptacle?
 
The 2017 code hasn't been adopted in that many states or areas yet so it probably hasn't become an issue. When it eventually does, manufacturers will eventually make products to comply. If you are faced with the problem of the Code requiring a product that does not exist you can ask the AHJ for a waiver.

-Hal
 
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But isn't it NEC 2017 only requires GFCI breakers for 250-volt receptacles? Does it include even your 120-volt receptacles?

As a result of Mike Holt statement that by 2020 all outlets may need GFCI. Here in the Philippines, in collaboration with engineers, code people, electrician, etc. I am in the process of putting every circuit (all loads) even lighting lamps on GFCI breakers. Not only that. All outlets will also have GFCI receptacles for backup in case the breaker fails (or vice versa). And they will be protected by Siemens First Surge 140,000A SPD for ultimate protection. Please share image of your multiple GFCI breakers put in a panel. Btw. The Siemens 2-pole breaker never have any nuisance tripping which the GFCI receptacles have (but putting LC filter after the GFIC receptacles solves the problem).
 

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LarryFine said:
Sierrasparky said:
I almost mentioned the multiple wires in the lugs, the transformer, and the taped splices.

I'm not sure whether there is a conduit in the upper right and the loom coming in.
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The hole is protected by rubber grommet and only 3 inches to the main panel.

After discussions with the local electrical engineers and electrician. We couldn't put the 240v-120v step down auto transformer in any kind of circuit breaker because it directly powers the 120v Siemens 2-pole GFCI. Without the transformer. All the 6 GFCIs won't work. So the logic is should the transformer breaks down, at least we would be aware of it by smokes from the panel (it's completely metal) and replacing all the damaged parts from destroyed transformer. This is better than not having any protection... by the circuit breaker tripping unknowingly (even with slow blow fuses put).

pseudo neutral 3.jpg

About the backup GFCI receptacles. UL itself mentioned many (10 or 20%?) GFCIs were actually not working and people forgot to push the self-test button every month and it doesn't fail by opening up the contacts.

About the OP question. Does the 2017 NEC GFCI upgrade mentions about all outlets needing protection even if they are 120v? I read

https://www.goldmedalservice.com/wh...s-gfcis-and-2017-national-electrical-code-re/

"210.8(B) - Expanded GFCI Protection (More than dwelling units)

GFCI protection is now required for larger circuits and some additional locations. The requirements for GFCI protection in dwelling units has expanded to include 250-volt, single-phase receptacles that are 50 amperes or less, in addition to the existing requirements for all 125-volt receptacles. This change helps protect against shocks and electrocutions for higher voltage receptacles."

OP. Where is the passage that all outlets need to be protected by GFCI breakers even if they are 120volts.. in case I this was how I understood your question. Just curious.
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tersh said:
LarryFine said:
About the OP question. Does the 2017 NEC GFCI upgrade mentions about all outlets needing protection even if they are 120v? I read

https://www.goldmedalservice.com/wh...s-gfcis-and-2017-national-electrical-code-re/

"210.8(B) - Expanded GFCI Protection (More than dwelling units)

GFCI protection is now required for larger circuits and some additional locations. The requirements for GFCI protection in dwelling units has expanded to include 250-volt, single-phase receptacles that are 50 amperes or less, in addition to the existing requirements for all 125-volt receptacles. This change helps protect against shocks and electrocutions for higher voltage receptacles."

OP. Where is the passage that all outlets need to be protected by GFCI breakers even if they are 120volts.. in case I this was how I understood your question. Just curious.
​
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It states that all single-phase receptacles 50A or less with 150 volts to ground or less must have ground-fault protection in the breaker or receptacle. I read that as all 120/240 receptacles 50A or less.
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tersh said:
Btw. The Siemens 2-pole breaker never have any nuisance tripping which the GFCI receptacles have (but putting LC filter after the GFIC receptacles solves the problem).




After discussions with the local electrical engineers and electrician. We couldn't put the 240v-120v step down auto transformer in any kind of circuit breaker because it directly powers the 120v Siemens 2-pole GFCI. Without the transformer. All the 6 GFCIs won't work. So the logic is should the transformer breaks down, at least we would be aware of it by smokes from the panel (it's completely metal) and replacing all the damaged parts from destroyed transformer. This is better than not having any protection... by the circuit breaker tripping unknowingly (even with slow blow fuses put).
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Tersh, have you created a nuetral ,where there is none (and apparently no earth ground?) for the sake of the gfci operation here?

~S~
 
romex jockey said:
Tersh, have you created a nuetral ,where there is none (and apparently no earth ground?) for the sake of the gfci operation here?

~S~
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Yes. We have no GEC and no EGC in all houses in the country. An expert taught me how to do it, synthesizing a pseudo neutral out of a 240v-120v step down autotransformer to power the Siemens GFCI breakers, and it works flawlessly.

When we first power up the subpanel with the 6 GFCI breakers. One of them kept tripping (it immediately trips at power on). The electrician and I thought the breaker was broken. But then we found out it was detecting a leakage as in the old house, a live wire powering the washing machine was in contact with cement. When it got fixed, the breaker no longe trips. So GFCI breaker is so useful it can be used to detect unwanted wire to concrete contacts.
 
mjjstang said:
tersh said:
It states that all single-phase receptacles 50A or less with 150 volts to ground or less must have ground-fault protection in the breaker or receptacle. I read that as all 120/240 receptacles 50A or less.
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Does it include even tv outlets or only near water? If even tv outlets. Why are there so many rules. I remember Mike Holt video suggesting why not put gfci in all outlets so no more complex rules.
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tersh said:
mjjstang said:
Does it include even tv outlets or only near water? If even tv outlets. Why are there so many rules. I remember Mike Holt video suggesting why not put gfci in all outlets so no more complex rules.
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It states any receptacles under 50A that are 150v or less to ground. 15A/20A have been required for some time I believe. My issue, is that they don't make a GFCI breaker for this 120v 50a receptacle. I have my own thoughts about GFCI on everything, but that is not the issue, if we could GFCI protect this we would, but the only way I can is by using a 2-pole breaker because they make one in 2-pole.
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Sierrasparky said:
tersh said:
View attachment 22180


Anyone notice the violations in the picture
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He has other threads, some are lengthy, this picture is actually a pretty good looking installation for where he is located. They have incompatability issues there, POCO's are center tap grounding 120/240 sources, but there are no 120 volt appliances there and nobody is bringing a grounded conductor to the building, big mess.

mjjstang said:
tersh said:
It states any receptacles under 50A that are 150v or less to ground. 15A/20A have been required for some time I believe. My issue, is that they don't make a GFCI breaker for this 120v 50a receptacle. I have my own thoughts about GFCI on everything, but that is not the issue, if we could GFCI protect this we would, but the only way I can is by using a 2-pole breaker because they make one in 2-pole.
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It also says "installed in the following locations", is your application in any of the locations mentioned? It is not saying that all receptacles under 50A and 150v or less to ground need GFCI protection.

What are you supplying that needs 50 amp 120 volts that can't be done with 240 or 120/240 supply circuit?
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