2017 GFCI protection on receptacles for which breakers do not exist - Square D QO

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kwired said:
Sierrasparky said:
He has other threads, some are lengthy, this picture is actually a pretty good looking installation for where he is located. They have incompatability issues there, POCO's are center tap grounding 120/240 sources, but there are no 120 volt appliances there and nobody is bringing a grounded conductor to the building, big mess.

mjjstang said:
It also says "installed in the following locations", is your application in any of the locations mentioned? It is not saying that all receptacles under 50A and 150v or less to ground need GFCI protection.

What are you supplying that needs 50 amp 120 volts that can't be done with 240 or 120/240 supply circuit?
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Appreciate your help, but without getting wordy, we just need a 2017 NEC compliant way to install a 5-50 receptacle that covers any location listed in the text. Seems to be a real case of putting the cart before the horse.
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mjjstang said:
kwired said:
Sierrasparky said:
He has other threads, some are lengthy, this picture is actually a pretty good looking installation for where he is located. They have incompatability issues there, POCO's are center tap grounding 120/240 sources, but there are no 120 volt appliances there and nobody is bringing a grounded conductor to the building, big mess.



Appreciate your help, but without getting wordy, we just need a 2017 NEC compliant way to install a 5-50 receptacle that covers any location listed in the text. Seems to be a real case of putting the cart before the horse.
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It is a real case of cart before the horse IMO. Only justification I have found on the code change had nothing to do with shock/electrocution statistics or risk analysis, but rather "we now have listed devices for these applications" or something to that effect. Sounds to me like manufacturer lobbying to get them into code more than anything else being behind it.

You can at least use a two pole GFCI breaker, something that has been available for a long time, try finding a three pole GFCI breaker. There are some catalog numbers for them, but availability is not the same thing as having a catalog number.
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peter d said:
No, it does not look good at all. What are you smoking? :?
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:huh: Panels looks neat and tidy, most of it is safe.

What would you have done differently? 120/240 service but no neutral, circuits do not have an EGC, panels over 12 spaces get really expensive, and everything is loose wire.
 
mbrooke said:
:huh: Panels looks neat and tidy, most of it is safe.

What would you have done differently? 120/240 service but no neutral, circuits do not have an EGC, panels over 12 spaces get really expensive, and everything is loose wire.
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I regretted not getting the 16 space. I should have gotten 16 space or more and replaced the entire main panel with all GFCI breakers inside. I didn't know the Siemens GFCI breakers are completely resistant to any nuisance tripping.

Now it's difficult to replace it because I paid the electrician so much money to do all that.

Also the lugs are not original. I just ordered the original ECKLM125 Siemens lugs:

siemens panel lugs.JPG

It is much bigger than the one now. And I'd let electrician put crimp lugs to connect the autotransformer that powers the Siemens breakers.

The original panel has the following breaker included and not the lugs:

BrTwQS.jpg


It can't be switched open (even isolated on piece of paper like in the picture). It returned to close (OFF) position immediately. Usually what are the parts inside that get broken easily even without any use? Anyone has tear down such to see what is defective inside?


Amazon doesn't allow return or replacement of one part only. And Siemens USA wont allow exchange by shipping it. They want me to return and exchange it with a physical US Siemens distributor. And local Siemens won't replace it because they said it was bought in USA. Therefore I can't use it anymore. I want to see teardown of what's inside it and why it returned of OFF position immediately. Any idea just for education purpose?
 
tersh said:
I regretted not getting the 16 space. I should have gotten 16 space or more and replaced the entire main panel with all GFCI breakers inside. I didn't know the Siemens GFCI breakers are completely resistant to any nuisance tripping.

Now it's difficult to replace it because I paid the electrician so much money to do all that.

Also the lugs are not original. I just ordered the original ECKLM125 Siemens lugs:

View attachment 22187

It is much bigger than the one now. And I'd let electrician put crimp lugs to connect the autotransformer that powers the Siemens breakers.

The original panel has the following breaker included and not the lugs:

BrTwQS.jpg


It can't be switched open (even isolated on piece of paper like in the picture). It returned to close (OFF) position immediately. Usually what are the parts inside that get broken easily even without any use? Anyone has tear down such to see what is defective inside?


Amazon doesn't allow return or replacement of one part only. And Siemens USA wont allow exchange by shipping it. They want me to return and exchange it with a physical US Siemens distributor. And local Siemens won't replace it because they said it was bought in USA. Therefore I can't use it anymore. I want to see teardown of what's inside it and why it returned of OFF position immediately. Any idea just for education purpose?
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Did you turn it to fully off and then on? Many breakers are shipped in the trip position.
 
mbrooke said:
Did you turn it to fully off and then on? Many breakers are shipped in the trip position.
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I did. But here's something weird. I put it on table and was about to video it and show it to you at youtube. But it suddenly stays in on position when I turned it on. I discovered that you need to push the lever slightly downward (when it's sitting on table so it can lock in On position). If you just turn it on and off without pushing it in. It won't turn on. Is this supposed to be normal? I handled many breakers, and it doesn't have this behavior. Or is it semi defective?
 
tersh said:
I did. But here's something weird. I put it on table and was about to video it and show it to you at youtube. But it suddenly stays in on position when I turned it on. I discovered that you need to push the lever slightly downward (when it's sitting on table so it can lock in On position). If you just turn it on and off without pushing it in. It won't turn on. Is this supposed to be normal? I handled many breakers, and it doesn't have this behavior. Or is it semi defective?
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Here's the video it.


In the first and second attempt. I didn't push the lever so it returns to OFF position. In the third attempt. I need to push it gently down so it can be in On position. Is this normal, or is the subpanel breaker slightly defective? I have handled many other breakers and it doesn't have this behavior.
 
mbrooke said:
Not designed that way, if you move it to on, it should stay in the on position.
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I'm searching at youtube the teardown of circuit breaker that shows how the latching works in the On position. If you know of an illustration that clearly shows it or particularly the Siemens brand. Kindly let me know. Thanks.
 
tersh said:
I'm searching at youtube the teardown of circuit breaker that shows how the latching works in the On position. If you know of an illustration that clearly shows it or particularly the Siemens brand. Kindly let me know. Thanks.
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Sadly, not of that specific type. :(
 
mbrooke said:
Sadly, not of that specific type. :(
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If you will see the following new video. I can consistently make it stay latched by pushing it after it is in the on position. Listen to the click after I turned it on (in first and second attempt, increase the volume of your speaker so you can obviously hear the click). In third attempt, I didn't push it so it returned. At 4th try I pushed it with a click and it stayed latched. Can't you consider it as tolerance?


I can no longer return the main breaker to Siemens. At least the thermal and magnetic tripping would still work, ain't it? It can be treated as an expensive lugs with at least thermal and magnetic tripping backup. Well. The main panel has breaker connected to the subpanel anyway but two is better than one. Isn't it.
 
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tersh said:
If you will see the following new video. I can consistently make it stay latched by pushing it after it is in the on position. Listen to the click after I turned it on (in first and second attempt, increase the volume of your speaker so you can obviously hear the click). In third attempt, I didn't push it so it returned. At 4th try I pushed it with a click and it stayed latched. Can't you consider it as tolerance?


I can no longer return the main breaker to Siemens. At least the thermal and magnetic tripping would still work, ain't it? It can be treated as an expensive lugs with at least thermal and magnetic tripping backup. Well. The main panel has breaker connected to the subpanel anyway but two is better than one. Isn't it.
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Its not normal tolerance. IMO I think the thermal magnetic trip works, but to honest there is no way to know for sure. Maybe testing the breaker? Worse case could be a manufacturing defect like a deformed pole piece that might hang the bi-metal.
 
mbrooke said:
Its not normal tolerance. IMO I think the thermal magnetic trip works, but to honest there is no way to know for sure. Maybe testing the breaker? Worse case could be a manufacturing defect like a deformed pole piece that might hang the bi-metal.
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The latching on is connected to the bi-metal? How? Any clear illustration you have seen? The vidoes at youtubes are not clear on the exact latching on mechanism.
 
mbrooke said:
Here is one example:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGFnooeA6Iw
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I was watching that same video an hour ago but not clear exactly what hatches it on. If it is really the bi-metal strip, then it's trouble because it may trip at 80A instead of 100A because of possible deformed pole as you commented.

Tomorrow I'll take apart an old breaker to be familiarized how the latching is done and how it is connected to the bi-metal strip and if it is separate, how it latches on without the bi-metal help.

Thanks for the hint.
 
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